How do you guys feel about China copies?

[singularity35]

I love the internet! It's so easy to declare moral high ground.

 

[bobusx]

I love the internet! It's so easy to declare moral high ground.

Only someone with weak morals declares the moral high ground. How do things look from down there?

 

[Jesse D.L]

if you want it get it, I doubt you buying one is going to put anybody at crk or strider on the street any time soon.

 

[shecky]

While I love straw man arguments as much as the next guy, many who are defending the counterfeiters don't seem to grasp the possibility that not all of us are completely *ahem* morally challenged.

How many people are defending counterfeiters? Or is this another straw man to slay?

With all of the posturing and preening against China, theft of intellectual property, and piracy, I have to assume that all said people have bought and paid for all of their music, having never downloaded or pirated songs.

The rules about copying between things like knives and music are different. A copied knife is generally covered by patent, only if applicable, whereas a music is generally copyrighted, theoretically automatically.

In many cases that cause much hurt feelings and moralizing among knife nuts, copying isn't even an issue of intellectual property or piracy unless someone has taken steps to claim intellectual property in the first place. IOW, you don't own a design unless you hold a patent on it. And even then, the onus is entirely upon the holder to prove any infractions are in fact validly covered by the patent. Absent a patent, copies are fair game, and all the moral high ground in opposition to copying begins to fall back on subjective sense of personal honor. I guess we all gotta feel superior in some way.

 

[JAB]

How many people are defending counterfeiters? Or is this another straw man to slay?

Oh my bad, they aren't defending the counterfeiters per se - just their products.

 

[singularity35]

Only someone with weak morals declares the moral high ground. How do things look from down there?

I wonder where you got the idea that I was declaring anything except that I said I love the internet.

And by your logic, you just did some declaring of your own. So just look around if you wanna find out what it looks like.

Besides do you make those rules up yourself or do you do a search?

 

[frenchmade]

Spyderco?

 

[J85909266]

I don't buy copies and I don't buy from China.

The situation with China is troublesome. Companies I love and support have been giving China their designs and their knowledge in order to produce knives at a lowr cost, and we are paying for it now with all of these fancy copies and counterfeits.

It's troubling.

 

[Indianbladenoob]

I was recently tempted by a knife on a Chinese website. All of my morality threatened to go eff itself because it claimed to be a D2 Knife at 60 hrc at $45, but turned out to be a blatant rip-off of a J.Neilsen BUK Knife. That story is on another thread I started. It actually pushed me to make my own.
Its not moral high ground. For many reasons I will never buy an original Sebanza. But I also will avoid the D2 clones on the chinese website for many other reasons some of which are my subjective "moral high ground". I would rather wear an original Casio than a fake Omega/Rolex/Breitling. Largely because it will still tell time and believe it or not, I have seen heirloom Casio's. But, that's just me.

I am in the process of making one. Should get it back from HT today......................

 

[Fanglekai]

I was recently tempted by a knife on a Chinese website. All of my morality threatened to go eff itself because it claimed to be a D2 Knife at 60 hrc at $45, but turned out to be a blatant rip-off of a J.Neilsen BUK Knife. That story is on another thread I started. It actually pushed me to make my own.
Its not moral high ground. For many reasons I will never buy an original Sebanza. But I also will avoid the D2 clones on the chinese website for many other reasons some of which are my subjective "moral high ground". I would rather wear an original Casio than a fake Omega/Rolex/Breitling. Largely because it will still tell time and believe it or not, I have seen heirloom Casio's. But, that's just me.

I am in the process of making one. Should get it back from HT today......................

You can get real Queen knives with great D2 for very close to that price. Www.collectorknives.net paid bf dealer too!

 

[Indianbladenoob]

You can get real Queen knives with great D2 for very close to that price. Www.collectorknives.net paid bf dealer too!

Wow those are some pretty knives. They scream "user". I like..........

 

[co556guy]

I don't like copies.

For your $$, of $40-50 you can get a spyderco tenacious (for less, even) that will be built better than the copy that isn't backed by spyderco, the real one that has a real name to put on the line.....

With a copy, nobody's name is on the line, and no QC after china makes it.

Buy the tenacious. Buying a copy of a CR is like buying a copy of a Rolex. Anyone who buys a knockoff obviously does not get what makes a Rolex worth what it is (and will never get pleasure from using the real deal like the person who understands the difference).

 

[Leeble611]

so u wanna support someone stealing from america?

 

[Indianbladenoob]

You know I understand the American politico-economic position. Its easy to argue that practically 3/4ths of all we buy today has at least had some parts made in China. And personally, I have come to accept this. Now whether this is stealing from America or not I will leave to Americans to ascertain and react to. The entire world needs to be aware of and react to China at some point politically.

However, as I understand it, this thread is about Knives and China Copies, and the definition of Copy v/s Clone v/s OEM has been clarified.
To reiterate------
OEMs: China made Kershaw's and Spyderco's - These are ethically and morally ok to buy IMHO. Still American companies wanting to provide quality to those who probably cannot afford the costs of US made knives.

Copies: Differently branded copies of original designs that use a (thinly disguised) combination of designs and features that are recognizable as those of a particular brand or designer. The BEE, Enlan "Police" models. I would not mind original or semi-original designs from these manufacturers but I would NOT buy an ENLAN Police or Tenacious even though I know it may be made on the same machines as the original Spyderco.

Clones: Here's where I think things get genuinely criminal. It may be made of S35VN or D2 and be spectacularly well built for its price. But it is sold under the original's brand name, purports to be of that brand and may even be comparable to the original in quality but is clearly and definitely NOT of the original brand. Strider, Hinderer and CRK being most copied in my observation. I have heard arguments that CRK's patents have expired a while ago etc. While this may technically be true, the cloners still use the equity of Chris Reeve or Rick Hinderer to sell their knives. My moral high horse whinnies, bucks and shies away like its seen a rattlesnake...................

I made this after deciding not to buy a China copy of a Custom Design

 

[KrisOK]

I always wonder what it is about Sanrenmu/Bee/Enlan/Ganzo/Navy knives that get folk's hackles up. First off, you have to go LOOKING for one of them. You don't find them in your average big box or Bass Pro Shop. They aren't trying to compete directly with US brands. Sure they use designs and technology from other makers. But very few knife companies DON"T in one fashion or another. Otherwise CRK would be the only knife brand on the planet with a frame lock.

People have been copying other people's ideas ever since Og the caveman chipped the first wheel out of a boulder. Granted some of the Chinese designs are pretty much direct rip-offs, and a copied tenacious actually MIGHT compete with the real thing. But how about the SRM 710? Does Chris Reeve need to really worry about losing market share because folks are buying an $8 Chinese knife that LOOKS very similar to his $400 knives? Ummm...... I HIGHLY doubt it.

What I hate are the actual COUNTERFITS that people try to sell as the real thing. THAT"S where damage could be done to a brand, and it should be fought. The sad thing is that the SRM/Enlan/Bee... knives are actually built pretty well, while most of the COUNTERFITS are usually total crap. Someone who buys one of THOSE and thinks that they are getting the real thing is going to be very let down and it might affect their view of the brand.

I own about 20 SRM/Enlan.... knives. They are for the most part excellant quality for the price. In fact, some of them I would compare in fit, finish and functionality to name brand knives costing 3 and 4 times as much. Has this stopped me from buying name brand knives? Absolutely not. I have 20 chinese knives and over 140 name brand knives. If anything, it's helped me to decide TO buy particular name brand knives. I had never had an arc lock Benchmade before I picked up an SRM 962. I was so impressed that I almost immediately ordered a couple of Griptillians. And after getting an SRM 710, I know now that when I finally buy a CRK, I'll be looking for a large, rather than a small one.

 

[Indianbladenoob]

I always wonder what it is about Sanrenmu/Bee/Enlan/Ganzo/Navy knives that get folk's hackles up. First off, you have to go LOOKING for one of them. You don't find them in your average big box or Bass Pro Shop. They aren't trying to compete directly with US brands. Sure they use designs and technology from other makers. But very few knife companies DON"T in one fashion or another. Otherwise CRK would be the only knife brand on the planet with a frame lock.

I agree that these manufacturers also make quality products. There are a few I even covet. Fortunately they are also evolving into creating their own designs. I am not talking about specific design features like a framelock or a hole/stud/wave. To oversimplify, I don't want a knife that at first glance appears and purports to be Syderco Police but is really a "Navy" knife with "Police" written on it and obviously made in the same "molds" as a Spyderco Police.

People have been copying other people's ideas ever since Og the caveman chipped the first wheel out of a boulder. Granted some of the Chinese designs are pretty much direct rip-offs, and a copied tenacious actually MIGHT compete with the real thing. But how about the SRM 710? Does Chris Reeve need to really worry about losing market share because folks are buying an $8 Chinese knife that LOOKS very similar to his $400 knives? Ummm...... I HIGHLY doubt it.

Agreed! It is not the SRM710 I take exception to. It doesn't even need to hide behind the CRK's-patents-have-expired argument. It does not claim or purport to be a CRK. We can take it further by discussing if it might actually be good for CRK in some way.

What I hate are the actual COUNTERFITS that people try to sell as the real thing. THAT"S where damage could be done to a brand, and it should be fought. The sad thing is that the SRM/Enlan/Bee... knives are actually built pretty well, while most of the COUNTERFITS are usually total crap. Someone who buys one of THOSE and thinks that they are getting the real thing is going to be very let down and it might affect their view of the brand.

In my mind Counterfeit = Clone. However I doubt anyone who is aware of CRK/Strider/Hinderer is going to think a clone is real. And I also don't think it affects brand perception.

 

[KrisOK]

In my mind Counterfeit = Clone. However I doubt anyone who is aware of CRK/Strider/Hinderer is going to think a clone is real. And I also don't think it affects brand perception.

Yeah, I wasn't really thinking CRK when I was talking about counterfits. It would be tough to make an even HALF way convincing CRK or Strider. I actually HAVE seen some Strider counterfits, and they were junk that wouldn't fool anybody with a working knowledge of the real thing. I was thinking more of the copies of Kershaw, CRKT and even some Spydercos (My neighbor bought a fake poliwog). I come accross these on the bay all the time. I report them all the time too, but anymore it seems that eBay doesn't really care.

 

[espnazi]

Yeah, I wasn't really thinking CRK when I was talking about counterfits. It would be tough to make an even HALF way convincing CRK or Strider. I actually HAVE seen some Strider counterfits, and they were junk that wouldn't fool anybody with a working knowledge of the real thing. I was thinking more of the copies of Kershaw, CRKT and even some Spydercos (My neighbor bought a fake poliwog). I come accross these on the bay all the time. I report them all the time too, but anymore it seems that eBay doesn't really care.

Actually not that hard apparently. One chinese custom maker who has a factory has been making some for about $150 in S35VN and $110 in a sandvik 12c27. You can certainly tell differences, plus he marks them with his own brand but they are very close clones.

This same guy who makes the high end clones without fake markings has apparently made a small run of 40 custom cloned lochsa in S35VN, to be honest I would buy one if they were not $340, maybe $250. This guy certainly has talent, wonder if he'll ever start producing his own designs.

 

[Jaytaylor]

 

[pap11y]

I have no issue with well made chinese goods.

I have a major issue with people blatantly ripping off patented designs of businesses.

I won't support them by buying their crap..