Kali done with Khukri's

Svashtar said:
I'm very much afraid you're wasting your breath trying to be logical with trolls who can delude themselves to this extent.
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The trolls are not the concern, if you have someone claiming an obvious bias and no one disputing it, it could easy influence others who don't know the backstory and just see that thread or that post. Feeding the trolls only happens when you go to their level, they always burn out when you don't.

-Cliff
 
Ghost Kobun said:
It makes sense, I was aware of some of the dagger/blades found in the FMA but unaware of the vast array of blades. Some I have seen though did not have names for them.

Thanks for the reply. Could you direct me to a link where some of these blades are named with pictures.

Also correct; direct thrusting of dagga's are not the primary in the FMA. Anglulation is the primary attribute.

I find the curve of the Khukri helps me 'capture' the blade of the opponent.
In capturing, I really mean that the curve helps to be definitive on the 'check' being solid.

In the movie 'Arthur' double Kukri's where used. As the knives used where modified with a 'kind' of brass knuckle.

Kobun
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Hello Kobun

For more information on traditional Filipino Weaponry I would suggest utilizing the resources available on the Ethnographic Edged Weapons Resource Site, one of which is my own site dedicated to the weapons of the Muslim Filipinos. Here is a link: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword
 
Does that mean that you are trained in the correct use of a kukri in combat? If you are, I'd be interested in hearing from whom you learnt your techniques.
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:rolleyes:

Are you implying that you can't use a kukri in combat unless you learned a system that is kukri specific/intensive?

Thanks for telling me. I guess my lowly knife skills exclude me from even thinking about using a kukri for combat.

Everybody:

Himalayan Imports are crap and Hock Hochheim's knife methods are lacking. At least that's what some people I've never heard of before that conduct themselves very poorly have to say.

It appears that the trolls have picked a fight with the biggest Billy Goat Gruff. Might I suggest that they all crawl back under the bridge from which they came.

FWIW I will never purchase anything from Tora.
 
HI has its defenders, so does Tora so it seems. Simon does not speak for others, people speak their own minds and thats fine. We have not asked for our supporters to post here, but merely pointed out that this forum exists. Its up to the individual whether they choose to post or not.

For those that think Sirupate is a number of personalities on this thread, fine. Those of you who have had correspondance with him will truly know what the answer is.

I personally feel that what Simon said at the beginning wasn't said in the best way. But what is done is done. As many of you well know, Simon is and has been passionate about kukri's since he was 9 years old. Tora is ran from our home, its not a big business and its not a money maker thats for sure, otherwise I wouldn't be working all the hours in the day, coming home and then doing paperwork and packing for Tora. Our kukris pay for themselves and we provide a good income to our kami's in Nepal..... and thats what is important to us. If you choose not to believe that, thats your call. I know the score and thats all that matters to me.

HI kukris to Simon are not authentic in design and do not truly represent what kukris are all about, thats his opinion and he is entitled to that. When he first imported his first batch (which were for the Martial Art Students), he was so appaulled by the quality, that he set about sorting it out and to bring back the quality of historical blades upon which their reputation was made.

I personally don't care, they are all big shiny knives to me..... but when I look at the HI kuks, they do look different to the authentic/historical kukris that I have seen in books, WWII documentry's, films etc.

As for the WWII in this thread (which is mine by the way), I actually like it because its different, but it does not reflect a WWII style kukri.

I believe the HI kuks to be an american style evolution of kukri. I know they are made in Nepal, but the designs are based on what you guys like and what you do with them. None of the old style kuks have round points like the WWII. And its not just the WWII that is rounded. I'm no expert, and I don't pretend to be, but from looking at Yangdu's latest deals from the past week or two, the WWII isn't the only kukri with a round point. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that either, or that makes them poor quality. I would say though, that IMO they are not truly based on authentic models.

As you all know, or maybe some of you don't, there are many companies in Nepal making kukris..... making the same kukris. Believe me, if we wanted to make kuks like HI's, it would not be a problem. If we wanted to supply a BAS like yours, we'd order a Service No.1 from any other khukuri house in Nepal, its the same kukri but with a better finish.

I don't know where I'm going with this, so i'll finish up.....

I wish HI all the best, I always have. Two companies going in completely different directions.

For those I know and have corresponded with, take care and be well.

Best wishes....
Leanne
 
Leanne?

Any chance you could take over the internet posting responsibilities as well?

Peace.










Be well and safe.
 
Kohei said:
...the designs are based on what you guys like and what you do with them.
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I think there is a possible arguement here, as some styles have obviously come from forum requests and Bill's audience is heavy utility based. However as for "authentic", it is hard for me to judge the HI as otherwise considering how they are made.

Does anyone actually think the khukuris never changed in Nepal and the first ones forged look like Tora's current offerings? Of course not. The kami's working for Bill produce a product that best suit their market, and again HI offers more than 2+lbs Ang Khola's.

It would be interesting to see if the Ang Khola's and Sirupati's that HI now offfer are similar to the ones when they first started and was the design actually thickened for the western market.

-Cliff
 
Kismet stole my post. If Simon posted with the same courtesy and articulation that Leanne does this thread would have remained on topic.
 
I think there was a style of thick spined HI khuk offerred several years ago that is not very common in today's variations. The extra heavy khuks are largely gone.

I've always thought Simon's quest for a replica/martial arts blade to be logical; I never accepted his premise none of the HI blades are. I believe that has been adequately refuted, as have various other mischaracterizations; none of the blades have points, they're all heavy, none of the handles is curved, all the bolsters are not authentic, etc etc. Leanne just said she reviewed a week of Yangdu's offerings and none had a point...there's a M43 that has the traditional bolster, the curved handle, and weighs 25 oz and is pointed. There is a special run of FF that has all of that. It is not that those things are gone from HI, it is that there is so much more available too. For someone impatient for a deal of the day to meet their particular specs, email Yangdu directly.


Leanne spoke very well. I second Kismet's advice.


munk
 
Hello Cliff Stamp,

The way I interperate authenticity, is a basically two fold, the design and the way they are made, if both of those are correct then to me its authentic.

You asked if the angkhola and sirupate are the same as the ones originally offered. The angkhola models that you offer were specifically designed for the tourist market. Angkhola actualy refers to a the first fuller in the kukri, the second fuller is then known as dui chira (meaning two divides) and so on. However in tourist kukri angkhola refers to a type of kukri with a half fuller and a particular shape, made for visitors going to Nepal, it is not traditional design, and is readily avaliable from almost any kukri house in Nepal.
The sirupate as most people know it originated from the Limbu in Eatsern Nepal, which had a blade length of around 33cm and weighed around 17oz, very different to the tourist sirupate kukri. Although there are some villager sirupate with thick spines, however this is usually down to the Village kami not being very skillfull, as the chaura style kukri was generaly used for heavy duty work.

Hello Munk,

Leanne reviewed a couple of weeks of Yangdu's deals, and she did mention that the M43 that HI offers had a better shape. You also mention that the M43 has a traditional bolstser on it, yes it has a better bolster but not an M43 style bolster, also you mention the weight as being 25oz, but that was on an 17" M43 were one would have expected the weight to be less than 25oz. However as I have said in a reveiw I did of your M43 it is a good kukri, but some design changes need to be done to make it a genuine repro of the M43, its nearer the MKII than an M43 (which is a variation of the MKII theme).
The same goes for your Malla period (1200-1769) kukri.
Regarding your WWII kukri, my main beef about that kukri is the fact that people that buy it might well be thinking that, that is what the Gurkhas and the British army actually carried in WWII, and its far from that. If you want to make a kukri like that thats up to you, but perhaps it should go in another catagorie?

I am slightly surprised at your reactions, as what I have said on this thread is nothing new, I have said it all before with I might add the best intentions.

Cheers Simon
PS Leanne has a way with words :)
 
My issue with your initial statement has nothing to do with the design or name for a khuk. Your initial post showed a photo of a HI khuk next to one of yours with a list of things that are things to look for in a "Poorly made" khuk. The list was all design points common to many HI products. The implication was that HI khuks are poorly made, not that they are inaccurate historically or unsuitable to you martial art. You said nothing about the steel used, the heat treatment of it, the finish of the blade or the quality of it's exectution. If you wanted to show a poor khuk for using in you martial art, then you did that. But you implied that it was poorly made, of inferior materials, and later on compared it to tourist junk. Some of HI's designs may be similar to tourist models, or even directly stem from them, but the materials and execution are not the same. I have owned tourist khuks and can say that HI's can stand up to use that the tourist ones can't. Those lion head khuks that come up on ebay are a great example of that. There are lion head khuks that are good though, they are just not common. I would like to chalk it all up to misinterpretation of what you said, but I believe your attack was deliberate and I will not be buying any khuks from your company. I might have, probably would have, before all this.
 
Hello Bob,

Lions head Pommel kukri have nothing to do with what I said in my previous post.
Please read it again.

Cheers Simon
 
I was not refering to that post, but the one where you used HI as an example of a poorly made khuk. One of the lions head tourist models would have been a better example of a poorly made khuk. It would not however illustrated the design issues you have with HI. It would probably fit all your criteria though about the proper design for a khuk for your martial art, but without being able to hold an edge or perform for very long without breaking.
 
Hello Bob,

I guess quality in an object is a combination of things put together, if they don't all come together, its not a quality object. If it fails to replicate a period object, its not a quality replica. If it doesn't have what an expert eye would expect in a quality finish, its not a quality finish. If an object is based on a tourist production model, can it ever be called a quality object?

Cheers Simon
 
Quality is in the skill of the maker. any design can be implemented with a high degree of quality irregardless of what one user might think of said design for his intended use. There is a difference between quality materials and quality design, of course. similarly, there is a difference between an honest comparison and one that is rife with personal bias and a lack of objectivity.

Simon, from what I have read you are a student of martial history. One with more knowledge than myself, I will freely and happily admit. However, you seem stuck on "historically accurate replicas" and I do not understand this at all. You've mentioned the WWII design several times... and, with the argument that you've used to address HI's WWII models apparent lack of "historical accuracy", I submit that the traditional WWII model itself is not historically accurate.

After all, there were kukris made hundreds of years before the 1940s and the WWII model is not exactly an accurate representation (or replica even) of all of them. Is it?

Is history stagnate or does it evolve? would you have kukri design stagnate or evolve? It has evolved for hundreds if not thousands of years and it would be a shame if that all stopped now because some manufacturer or another gets hung up on "historically accurate replicas". Hmmm... I bet you could even trademark that phrase! ;)

It is my personal opinion that you have either become caught up in the need to impose a chronological hierarchy and thereby create accurate period replicas or you have purposefully, in this thread, attempted to misinform the public so as to give your (recently restocked, according to your website) product line more exposure.

I won't venture to guess which is which but, if the first, I would hope that you would cease in knocking HI simply because it does not always share your point of view regarding the creation of "replicas".

And, if the second, shame on you.
 
Maybe it can be called a quality item because it works? I guess that doesn't matter to you. If you are going to rate a lions head tourist model that can't hold an edge or perform serious work higher than an HI model that can because if fits your criteria better, than that is up to you. Not all HI models are replicas, so that is not a valid criteria for quality of them. If the design of a tourist model works, than that is not a criteria for quality. If the finish in not up to your standards, that is a legitimate complaint, and HI will refund your money or replace your item with one that will. I do agree that the WWII name is misleading and should be renamed, but it has stuck and I doubt that will happen because it will only confuse regular customers at this point. Much of HI's business is repeat business and that speaks volumes of their quality. We have different definitions of quality obviously, I don't see how this converstation is going to continue constructively. Good luck with your business, but expect dissent when you make your claims against HI.
 
Hello Roughedges,

I can see where you are comming from, and yes I do like replicating older designs, but I am not completely hung up on them, and I am all for developement, although personally I doubt that there can be any improvement in Kukri design, mainly because its probably already been done.

I understand what you are saying about the maker, but that is only part of it, I think.

Posted becuase of the reasons you suggest, I don't think so, we are a very small/minute little kukri business (which is much more of a hobby), from which we dont make money from. I do it because I love kukri, have many friends in the Gurkhas, and I am keen to promote quality kukri (as I see them).

And I am not knocking HI from the replica position that you mentioned, by the way. Pease go back to the reply I made to Cliff Stamp a bit earlier, that might clarify things for you a bit better.

Bob, I fully appreciate that not all HI models are replicas, please read again my reply to Cliff Stamp, and I thought the Foxy's Folly with the thiner spines that you had come through, were very good indeed, and that there was no need for Yangdu to worry about their performance.

Cheers Simon
 
Simon, I think Leanne summed it up best. HI and Tora are totally different companies going in totally different directions. I think there is room for both. I think you will avoid trouble by promoting your product and not attacking theirs. By all means use your knowlegde of khuks, their history and application, to promote yours. I don't think there will be much objection (at least not from me) if you were to adopt the stance that your khuks are the most historically accurate and use that as a selling point. Or that your khuks are made with your martial art in mind. That is something you are passionate about and I have no doubt that you will insure that. But if you claim HI makes a poor product, I will do all I can to refute it. I know that these are seriously well made knives and can withstand use that destroys other knives. They work, and work well. That is my definition of quality or well made products. I do not doubt Tora products would fulfill those definitions either.
Regards,
Bob
 
Bob, I think you are most kind. Simon started this by attacking HI and claiming his product was superior. Tora's advertisment was in reproducing low bid British military contract khuks- many made in India. Do we understand khuks to be solely defined in this way?

Simon picked a single example of HI in which to base his claims upon. We've refuted that. HI does make martial arts khuks. What is left? He can say his product is superior, though there is no evidence to back this up. Tora has sold how many now? 100? 500? HI has sold tens of thousands with the finest warranty in the industry, across the globe in all kinds of arenas and for all types of jobs; military, commercial, agriculture, etc. They are proven. We know this, Blade Forums knows this, the International Blade and weapons community knows this.

Bob, if Simon had approached this topic in the manner you suggest, this thread wouldn't be here and he wouldn't be getting the adverstisment he wanted- negative or not. Yes, we can now write Simon's press releases for him, but how does that exempt him from bad form and bad manners, and wild claims?

The late Bill Martino allowed me to review a Tora khuk on his forum. It was a favorable review. Bill has now been repaid for his openess and kindness, his basic fairness, with boasts from Simon and a putdown.

The Kamis who work under Tora did not deserve this.

We khuk lovers welcomed another khuk distributor/manufacturer. With HI as the industry standard to meet, perhaps one day Tora might be as good. If and when that day ever appears, the consumer may have other criteria in which to decide whose product to support.

My opinion.

munk
 
Hello Bob,

I don't actualy have kukri made with MA in mind at all as it happens. If its replicating a historical peice I try to get it as acurate as possible. On the other hand if I am having something new done, it might take a few goes until it is done the way I visualised it, but to be honest MA is the last thing on my mind when having Kukri produced.

Cheers Simon
 
My sister always did accuse me of being a peacemaker. I am mad about this, I am trying to find a way to let it go. That was my best attempt. Maybe I let too much go, but I don't think we are reaching him anyhow. If attacks on HI's credibility continue, I will be amoung the first to defend.
 
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