Member Wali does not insure packages.

[bowmore17]

This is true.
But is BF forums going to ban a seller because a buyer states he never received item even though there is signature confirmation of delivery. It does not make sense..Commerce in this country would come to a complete stop if Signature at delivery is not proof of delivery.

 

[dericdesmond]

I doubt BF would ban a seller who followed Paypals proto regardless of stated rules. There has to be an end all and if I gotta choose Im following paypal's rules no question. Of course my own supercede it which tends to be on the buyers side as long as not a complete DB

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of a complete consumer purchase utopia?

 

[jill jackson]

This is true.
But is BF forums going to ban a seller because a buyer states he never received item even though there is signature confirmation of delivery. It does not make sense..Commerce in this country would come to a complete stop if Signature at delivery is not proof of delivery.

I have never had packages scanned delivered before they are, or any of the other problems with any carriers DC. Be it signature required, or just scan and put it in my mailbox. I order things almost weekly too.
I think that it's really reaching to say, DC is not good enough for here. That's just my opinion though and they can certainly run this place anyway the owner sees fit.

 

[Allen R.]

Tracked to your zip code and not scanned delivered to you is an entirely different matter. All B/F can do is ban someone that they deem is not following selling/trading rules. They certainly can't go after the party and hold them liable.

It was scanned delivered, so I called the P.o and they "tracked it ",but could only track it to my zipcode not my address.

 

[jill jackson]

It was scanned delivered, so I called the P.o and they "tracked it ",but could only track it to my zipcode not my address.

Seems they corrected a mistake for you. If the carrier had delivered it and scanned it at your box, they wouldn't have sided with you.

I have had the postal service send my package out of the USA before, tracking it all the way, but they never scanned it delivered before it was. It was around Xmas and the package was in Louisville, then away it went on vacation. When I received it, it was open you could see there was two Spyderco Barongs in it, but nobody bothered it, much to my relief.

 

[Allen R.]

Seems they corrected a mistake for you. If the carrier had delivered it and scanned it at your box, they wouldn't have sided with you.

I never got the knife though, and they are notorious around here for a package showing delivered, and it's not delivered. Apparently they scan them delivered before they get anywhere near you. the P.O was unwilling to do anything because it was "delivered", luckily paypal believed me and I got my money back.

 

[Dave Behrens]

I never got the knife though, and they are notorious around here for a package showing delivered, and it's not delivered. Apparently they scan them delivered before they get anywhere near you. the P.O was unwilling to do anything because it was "delivered", luckily paypal believed me and I got my money back.

If the PO is who "lost" your item why is Paypal or the seller responsible. I have insured packages before with the exact same results and still received no help or refund from the PO.

Is the seller or Payal responsible if USPS blatantly steals your item?

 

[jill jackson]

If the PO is who "lost" your item why is Paypal or the seller responsible. I have insured packages before with the exact same results and still received no help or refund from the PO.

Is the seller or Payal responsible if USPS blatantly steals your item?

I did a trade with a member here once and my end never showed up, I had insurance and the member allowed me to retain his end until the post office decided they couldn't find it and issued me a refund.

 

[Dave Behrens]

I did a trade with a member here once and my end never showed up, I had insurance and the member allowed me to retain his end until the post office decided they couldn't find it and issued me a refund.

In your situation the other member made a personal choice (which I agree with and would do the same myself), but he was under no obligation to make that choice since the PO is who mishandled your end of the deal.

In situations where buyers lie and say they never recieved their item in order to "scam" the seller or Paypal is not he issue here IMHO. The situations being discussed in this thread are when the package has been labeled as delivered by the courier, in this case USPS, and the buyer has not received the item.

These situations are a result of the Post Office not fulfilling their obligation to properly deliver the package to the customer. When anyone sells online and uses a courier service, the seller is under no obligation to pay extra money for insurance, signature confirmation etc. unless the buyer requests the extra service, and especially since those extra services are no guarantee what so ever that the courier will fulfill their role in the transaction.

If the buyer and seller are both honest people and have fulfilled their ends of the deal, they should both contact the Post Office responsible for the missing item and force the PO to fulfill the service they have been paid to do, or properly compensate both affected parties.

 

[RevDevil]

No one is getting banned here, sorry to disappoint everyone that may have been out for blood. From what I could gather from this mess of a thread is that the post office mishandled the package. I fail to see how the seller has any power over this really. He paid for a service and the service was left incomplete. Is he on the hook for anything? Maybe, he should contact the PO and have then look for the damn thing. Is it a good idea to bring this up 7+ months later? Not what I would call a sterling epiphany, but it is what it is. Action should be taken immediately, not well after the fact.

Bladeforums provides the venue for buyers and sellers to conduct a transactions. We are not going to dictate how every transaction should be handled step by step, nor can we tell grown men and women how to do things that should be ruled by common sense. We can encourage certain common sense behaviors, but as far as enforcing them goes...there would be a ton of people getting banned every day. That is not what we are about, not now and not in the forseeable future.

In your situation the other member made a personal choice (which I agree with and would do the same myself), but he was under no obligation to make that choice since the PO is who mishandled your end of the deal.

In situations where buyers lie and say they never recieved their item in order to "scam" the seller or Paypal is not he issue here IMHO. The situations being discussed in this thread are when the package has been labeled as delivered by the courier, in this case USPS, and the buyer has not received the item.

These situations are a result of the Post Office not fulfilling their obligation to properly deliver the package to the customer. When anyone sells online and uses a courier service, the seller is under no obligation to pay extra money for insurance, signature confirmation etc. unless the buyer requests the extra service, and especially since those extra services are no guarantee what so ever that the courier will fulfill their role in the transaction.

If the buyer and seller are both honest people and have fulfilled their ends of the deal, they should both contact the Post Office responsible for the missing item and force the PO to fulfill the service they have been paid to do, or properly compensate both affected parties.

Great post David. I would only add that since there are 3 sides to every story we only have one. So it is anyone's guess what will become of this.

 

[SPXTrader]

From the USPS website:

Signature Confirmation™ Find out when an item was delivered or delivery was attempted, and add security by requiring a signature. Cost $2.70 at the Post Office, $2.20 Paid Online.

Return Receipt - Get a delivery record showing the recipient's signature, received by email or postcard. $2.55 for mail receipt or $1.25 for email receipt.

Return Receipt for Merchandise - Get proof that you sent an item and proof it was delivered. You’ll get a mailing receipt (Form 3804), and a postcard (Form 3811) showing the recipient’s signature. $4.10

So add five bucks to the cost when selling and be done with the hassles of a potentially corrupt buyer or shenanigans by the Post Office.

Edited to add: As for the 'hassle' of the recipient having to go to the PO on a day off or Saturday, so be it. If they aren't willing to do that I'm not sure I would want to deal with them in the first place.

 

[kershawguy]

The party selling is responsible for delivery of the package. If he had tracking on it and it was claimed delivered by the post office, then there's nothing further he should do. For that is proof of delivery, if it wasn't there would be no sense in having tracking. Anyone could claim packages were undelivered and demand a refund. Fact is once the postal service scans it delivered the seller is not responsible. Insurance won't help either, because the post office will claim it was delivered as their record shows and pay nothing. eBay even states this, saying if your goods are scanned delivered you will not receive a refund, even if you didn't get it. Sounds like the carrier messed up, or is dishonest, or someone stole it out of your mailbox.

This is exactly right. But , in cases like this , I work with my customer and have sent another knife on several occasions. You will never be able to count on the postal service to work with you. We need to protect each other and work with each other. It also really helps to know who you are dealing with, and know what their policy is concerning lost items.

 

[Allen R.]

And to restate my first sentance Wali is a good person . USPS, OTOH , I'll just say I hope u guys have better P.O employees than me. I'm also sadly awaiting the day the mods say enough , and no more exchange....

 

[Thomas Linton]

Unless the seller and buyer agreed otherwise, the law in every state says it is the seller's duty to deliver the goods and that the seller has not performed his part of the contract of sale if there is no delivery. After all, the seller usually picks the means of delivery. If the seller's delivery service loses the goods, that's on the seller. Millions of items go out into commerce on that basis every day.

The seller picks the buyer. ("Accepting" an offer to sell is legally offering to buy, and the seller can always say "no.").

The seller can buy insurance (The buyer has no insurable interest do far as USPS is concerned.) to protect him somewhat ("Somewhat" as discussed above.)

The seller can agree to sell only on the basis that risk of loss in shipment passes to the buyer once the goods are delivered to the delivery service.

All the rest is about the question of fact as to whether delivery was made, not an issue of duty at all.

Facts are often hard to determine, but business goes on nevertheless.

It's not cynical to observe that Stuff Happens, however unhappy we are when it happens to us. (Now I have to go pay to send back a knife I bought on ePrey from a lying seller so I can get part of my money back.)

 

[jill jackson]

Unless the seller and buyer agreed otherwise, the law in every state says it is the seller's duty to deliver the goods and that the seller has not performed his part of the contract of sale if there is no delivery.

Take it to court and see who wins if a seller has delivery confirmation scanned delivered to the person's address. Some of you people act like the postal service's word would mean nothing and that's just not so. In the eyes of the law a scanned delivered package, would trump somebody just saying "I never got it".

 

[richard thurman]

boy all this trouble just to sell a knife. now the big question is ( if this kind of crap happing is it worth all of this crap just to sell or trade a knife ) just want to see every one input. thank you.

 

[jill jackson]

boy all this trouble just to sell a knife. now the big question is ( if this kind of crap happing is it worth all of this crap just to sell or trade a knife ) just want to see every one input. thank you.

It probably isn't worth it and if it were me I would have just sent them another knife. But, that would be under these conditions. Anything else such as where I didn't know the person at all, no I would not.

 

[richard thurman]

I have bought 2 different knifes from 2 people and traded 1 and I never ran into this stuff and that is why I was asking the question.

 

[knifehunt]

This is absolutely absurd. Can you tell us where you studied for your law degree?

Unless the seller and buyer agreed otherwise, the law in every state says it is the seller's duty to deliver the goods and that the seller has not performed his part of the contract of sale if there is no delivery. After all, the seller usually picks the means of delivery.

 

[knifehunt]

No, it's not worth the trouble, and that's why I'm done selling on this site. I made a recent trade here, and it is my last for sure.

boy all this trouble just to sell a knife. now the big question is ( if this kind of crap happing is it worth all of this crap just to sell or trade a knife ) just want to see every one input. thank you.