My Dispute with "The Bright Edge"

I thought this thread would have died by now but since it seems to still be hanging on, I figured I'd throw my opinion out there too. While I don't know anything about 'anyone' or balisongs, I have dealt with 'The Bright Edge' on a few occasions and have met and talked with Mr. Bartoli during the knife show in New York. I was never disappointed by anything I bought from Bob and found him to be very helpful. I know this thread isn't about what a great guy Bob is or isn't but about a deal that did not work out to a buyers expectations. All I want to say is that I've had some dealings with some people on BF (knifemakers) that did not go as planned and I've lost money but I never felt that I should 'drag' their names through the mud because of a deal gone bad. If I was dissatisified with a transaction and the rules were laid out ahead of time on their website, the person on the other end of the phone would know I was dissatisfied and I would not deal with them again... period; end of story.
 
In my dealings with thebrightedge Robert has been a stand up dealer. Everyone I know that has dealt with Robert have had no problems. This is an unfortunate situation. I am inclined to beleive that Robert said what he says he said.
 
As with many others so far, I have been a repeat customer with Bob as well as a fellow knife collector and friend with who he has taken the time on numerous occasions to just call and talk knives. I have always had great deals and great conversations with Bob. His return policy is also very clear on his website and I can't see how it can be mis-interpreted. As for the return shipping fee, Bob ships everything free over $100 so why should he pay for the return shipping? I don't know Roger but I feel that setting up a website because of a re-stocking fee being charged is a little much!!! Bob is a very fair person and a freind that will go out of his way to make a deal right. It appears that this deal wasn't going right from the beginning. :cool:
 
Robert is ok by me, I've saw him help lots of people out with knife problems that they bought from others and I've bought from him before and have been waiting for him to get a knife that will cost me alot of cash and I'm still waiting because I know Robert will take care of me.
Anyone, you messed up geting all worked up and making him mad and now you will have to learn the hard way. I think if you had kept on Roberts good side he would have gave you a full refund.
 
I too ordered from Robert and was happy with his price and service. But if I ordered Balisong, I would expect the knife latched both in open and closed position (what is the reason for the latch anyway??). If it was not I would send the knife back as faulty piece.

David
 
jivedaddy said:
Bob ships everything free over $100 so why should he pay for the return shipping?
From a business perspective, because it makes no sense to aggravate a customer of high end knives over a trivial cost, and it would make a huge step in promotion. People tend to be very vocal when you are extreme in either direction, and gaining a customer for life or losing one makes a lot more difference than one time shipping costs. Plus you also consider the effect of others reading the interaction, and all the people that that customer will talk to.

Bill Martino went out of his way for his customers, he did things so beyond the call that most people would not even believe he did them. He routinely sent out knives to people and told them to simply pay later when they could. He built a level of respect and loyalty that no ads in a magazine or website can match. Just consider the long term. Bill has passed but the cantina is still going strong and shows no sign of slowing down.

From just a "right thing" perspective, you sold someone a faulty product, why should they eat the shipping costs. Now you might want to argue that you didn't think it was defective, or you thought it was clear it was defective and it was "buyer beware" but obviously the customer didn't think so, and reading this thread there are others who feel similar. So from their perspective paying to return it seems unreasonable.

Simply ask yourself if you were in their situation what actions would you appreciate and act accordingly.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
From a business perspective, because it makes no sense to aggravate a customer of high end knives over a trivial cost, and it would make a huge step in promotion. People tend to be very vocal when you are extreme in either direction, and gaining a customer for life or losing one makes a lot more difference than one time shipping costs. Plus you also consider the effect of others reading the interaction, and all the people that that customer will talk to.

Bill Martino went out of his way for his customers, he did things so beyond the call that most people would not even believe he did them. He routinely sent out knives to people and told them to simply pay later when they could. He built a level of respect and loyalty that no ads in a magazine or website can match. Just consider the long term. Bill has passed but the cantina is still going strong and shows no sign of slowing down.

From just a "right thing" perspective, you sold someone a faulty product, why should they eat the shipping costs. Now you might want to argue that you didn't think it was defective, or you thought it was clear it was defective and it was "buyer beware" but obviously the customer didn't think so, and reading this thread there are others who feel similar. So from their perspective paying to return it seems unreasonable.

Simply ask yourself if you were in their situation what actions would you appreciate and act accordingly.

-Cliff

Cliff,

You may know some things from University, but you do not seem to know a lot about business.

1. Robert owns his own business. When you go into business for yourself, you get to decide how you do business. That is one of the reasons that people decide to go into business for themselves, it is one of the joys of the whole thing. The customer is your boss, but you get to decide what kind of customers you have. As Mick Strider said, "there is an ass for every seat".

I had my own knife shop in Seattle, called High Hat Knives. We carried all kinds of knives, specializing in custom knives. We were not heavy into kitchen cutlery. If you want kitchen cutlery, there is a shop 12 blocks down the street called Seattle Cutlery. That is where I directed customers who wanted that sort of thing, unless I knew and liked them, then I would special order it for them. We did not try to please all customers, all the time. The business closed, due to the fact that I moved, and we lost the space when the building got sold, not because we were unsuccessful. We were, by any definition of success.

2. Some customers cannot be pleased by the way you run your business. They can break your rules, and that is not good. One of the other busineses that I had was a tattoo shop. The rule is "no drunks". The coach of the pro basketball team in Seattle at the time came in and wanted a tattoo. He was drunk and loud, and was, thusly, asked to leave. He did not want to. He was not given a choice. Break the rules of a business, and you are NOT WANTED as a customer. The rules are there for a reason, not subject to customer interpretation. At either of my shops, failure to obey MY rules could result in physically unpleasant consequences. I am not a large fellow, but I can implement pain and suffering in a variety of different ways, with an escalation of force,should my wishes not be followed. In other words, the customer is always right, until they are wrong, and then they must leave, voluntarily or otherwise.

3. This is not some experiment or hypothesis. People create and operate small businesses because generally, they don't wish to follow someone else's rules. There are obviously rules imposed by local, state and national governmental bodies, which dictate certain conditions. This is why we had no employees, just myself and my two partners. Everything was decided by committee. The customer speaks with money, and a successful business owner listens. I am still in business, just to a much larger degree, and unpleasant customers get pushed off to junior salespeople, who may or may not be able to maintain a level of service that a customer expects. "Difficult" customers are free to go down the road to a competitor, sometimes even encouraged to do so.

You may wish to have the Golden Rule employed by a small business owner, but you cannot demand it, and you really cannot expect it. What you can do is find the business that you like working with.

I liked Bill Martino a great deal. I am loathe to say bad things about him, but you presented him as an ideal. Bill would do things such as send you a khukuri before payment or exchange something without a fuss. These were all great.

Bill would not however, suffer fools silently. When you spoke with Bill on the telephone, keep it short and sweet, he was not a meandering conversationalist. Bill was very "general" about what was in stock. I had requested a YCS from Bill for 4 years, and am just getting one from another Forumite. I asked and asked, but unless you were on top of the HI Forums, what you wanted might just always be out of reach. A "real" businessman would have kept a constantly updated database, listing a customers needs and wants, notifying them when said item was available. That was not Bill. A "real" businessman would not have had specials run like open seating at a rock concert, but would have done it more "civilized". I thought that Bill was an excellent person, but I did not care for the way he did business sometimes. I had to work harder to get "non catalog" items that I wanted, and frequently got them when they came up for sale on the Forums through private party. That is how I got my Kothimoda. A dedicated customer will find a way to get what they want.

Do you now or have you ever run your own successful, profit making business Cliff? Unless or until you do, you are simply expressing your wishes, however realistic or unrealistic, on how you would like to see a business run.

I assure you, how you want it to run, and how it runs can be two different animals.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Just a quick post from me (the PERPETRATOR), I'm am saddened that a few GBU trolls have ruined this for not only me but Robert too. Robert (even though we do not agree) I find more palatable than some of the trolls that inhabit the GBU forums... Robert has gone to the point of honoring my requests to remain civil throughout this dispute and thus far he has largely done so (with the sole exception of the trolls trying to convince him that I NEVER supposedly asked the question of "OPEN" lockup. If that were really an issue, Robert would have disputed my contention weeks ago and never offered what he described as "balisong lockup." Give the man some credit.

To this point Robert has yet to subject me to the disrespect that uninvolved others have chosen to do.

I DO NOT think that Robert intentionally mislead me from the start... this is the product of the "lets get a rope" mentality here by others.

There was a misunderstanding and I said things that made Robert angry (for which I regret) but I thought I was helping him given that he only had a SINGLE balisong for sale on his site. I really don't think he understood my question. And I didn’t not think he was a qualified balisong expert (anymore than I'm a MT OTF expert).

Can't it be possible that there WAS an honest mistake?

I will concede to Rick, at this point because I think this man is intelligent enough to read what has happened via his own actions. This is between Robert and me and frankly disgusts me that members of this forum have attempted to sway him into making posts that deviate from the truth. Rick has since stood down (according to his post), and has elected to give me the opportunity to return here in search of resolution.

Case in point. In my very first email to Robert is was discussed that the latch did not function in the open postion.. I think some of the trolls here have prodded Robert into making statements that are not accurate; else he would have disputed what I said weeks ago, in my original email - right?

Robert is not a dumb guy... We spoke at length about everything from the knifes to the jobs that we do to make our livings. I think Robert is a hardheaded SOB - not unlike myself... How can I fault him for behaving in the same manner as I?

Within the next couple of days, I will update my webpage concerning this issue and offer Robert the full opportunity to post (unedited by me) his feelings on my site. Regardless of what the trolls here may think of me, I AM a fair person and I WILL give Robert the opportunity to present his unedited thoughts to the site I have created.

I've just grown sick and tired of people who wish to support my position being intimidated by members who want to "ding" people their reputation points for voicing an opinion that departs from that of the resident trolls. I have lost so many “rep points” that I’m considering re-registering as “red-ball whiner – lord of the PT list” (whatever that is), because up top where I actually contribute, I will not be vilified as has occurred here. IE: I really could give a damn how many "red balls" I have for my rep..... If fact I have creatively egged some of the trolls on, because I guess that I must be some kind of masochist.

This takes some time, to put thoughts to written form, but I want to offer Robert a chance to either reconcile our position, or he can continue to tell me to "shove off". I see little else I can offer.
 
RGRAY said:
I don't know what you're reading; ROGER NEVER SPECIFICLY ASKED ABOUT ITS ABILITY TO LATCH IN THE OPEN POSITION.

Bob never told Roger he never had a reason to latch a balisong. :confused:
RGRAY, I'm not picking on you here, but this comment is consistent throughout the thread. Here's my 2 cents.

Whether a item for sale by a dealer is a $2000 custom knife or a $25 Craftsman hammer from Sears, the uniform commercial code offers specific protections for buyers regarding merchantability (i.e. the item works as intended). The fact that the buyer didn't ask whether the latch worked when the knife was in the open position or the seller didn't know about the flaw is not relevant.

I don't know either of the two guys involved here, so no axe to grind, but the dealer owes the buyer a complete refund. If this was simply a matter of the seller having a few beers, pulling the trigger in the middle of the night and having remorse when the knife (and the bill) arrived I believe he would owe the restocking fee, but that just isn't the case here. They had an indepth pre-buy conversation about the knife in which the major flaw was not discussed.

If I were the dealer, I'd be more concerned about my reputation than a $100 restocking fee. If I'm reading Cougar's post right, he's now lost the $100 anyway.
 
Kohai999 said:
Some customers cannot be pleased by the way you run your business.
This is the viewpoint that I was addressing. When dealing with one customer in a *public* forum you need to consider external viewpoints. Consider if all this happened in person, you are walking along a knife shop and hear a customer come in and aggressively complain he was sold a used and defective knife.

You notice that the knife doesn't latch and it is easily possible that you consider that defective, as others have noted here, and you see wear marks again that could readily be from use.

The owner gets very angry and lays down a return fee simply because of the "attitude", and then the shop is turned into a shouting match because of friends of the owner who choose to jump in and attack the customer.

Everything elevates and the customer leaves turned off completely and on the way out you get an earful about how horrendous the whole operation was and how he went to great lengths to find out about the knife before hand and still had to deal with all of that.

Now from a completely unbiased outside perspective do you think you would feel encouraged with the customer support that such an enviroment created. It isn't simply about one person, but even in those extremes where you can't satisify someone, you don't need to aggravate them and make it worse.

A "real" businessman would not have had specials run like open seating at a rock concert, but would have done it more "civilized".
Calling him not a "real" businessman is low, you don't like how he rans things fine, there is no need to get personal.

Consider what he achieved growth wise and product quality wise. Consider the effect he had through growth of HI on the people working for them and their family.

Bill treated the business as more of a friend or family affair and yes this had its drawbacks at times, but also great positives, and was one of the least hype filled people in the industry.

Were there problems with orders, website updates, yes, but look a the customer base he developed, its loyalty and its quality of people.

And yes I have direct experience in these issues, they are not simply business interactions, they are general to people. For example I was once asked by a PhD candidate to look at some numerical work in his thesis, this was a ~5 year work and he was due to convocate shortly. I went over the details and a few days later I made my comments.

They were not positive, in short I suggested that most of the analysis should be redone (a moumental work) as some of the techniques are dated and much higher quality of results could be derived from the experimental data. This was not taken well mainly because there was really no way it could be done in time by him, so he got very angry, said I didn't know what I was doing and he didn't know why he ever asked me, etc. .

Now I could have returned the insult, but what good would this have done. it certaintly would not have helped him during his defence and what would I have gained. I stayed calm, let him run himself out and then gave him a list of references he could consult and told him I would give him a hand if needed.

About a week later he dropped in to see me and we talked about setting it up, it was a long process but we got it done and we actually became friends. Now this won't happen in every case, there are people that will be unreasonable even if you are, but there are also lots of people that you can turn around, you can't turn anyone around by encouraging the behavior in this thread, you just make it worse.

So I ask again, just what are you trying to achieve, you are certainly not helping your friend by attacking the customer in such a manner. You can present your side of positive interactions without attacking someone else, and can even support them at the same time. It isn't easy to do so of course, it is much easier when someone gets upset to get upset right with them, it generally isn't productive though.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Calling him not a "real" businessman is low, you don't like how he rans things fine, there is no need to get personal.

Consider what he achieved growth wise and product quality wise. Consider the effect he had through growth of HI on the people working for them and their family.

Bill treated the business as more of a friend or family affair and yes this had its drawbacks at times, but also great positives, and was one of the least hype filled people in the industry.

Were there problems with orders, website updates, yes, but look a the customer base he developed, its loyalty and its quality of people.

And yes I have direct experience in these issues, they are not simply business interactions, they are general to people. For example I was once asked by a PhD candidate to look at some numerical work in his thesis, this was a ~5 year work and he was due to convocate shortly. I went over the details and a few days later I made my comments.

So I ask again, just what are you trying to achieve, you are certainly not helping your friend by attacking the customer in such a manner. You can present your side of positive interactions without attacking someone else, and can even support them at the same time. It isn't easy to do so of course, it is much easier when someone gets upset to get upset right with them, it generally isn't productive though.

-Cliff

A successful business is measured by profit margin, and long term sustainability. It is not about "general issues relating to people", you obviously do not know Richard about business.

I know very well how Bill Martino ran his business. I liked him, and I said so. I was not getting personal in attacking him. I was pulling a Stamp, and comparing/ contrasting one business mode to another, Made you kind of irritated, huh? Obviously.

You still are talking about how you WANT business done, not how it is done.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
A successful business is measured by profit margin, and long term sustainability. It is not about "general issues relating to people"

Which Walmart/Best Buy did that come from? :mad: :D

oil
 
Kohai999 said:
A successful business is measured by profit margin, and long term sustainability.
First off all HI took a major increase in growth through Bill on the internet, which expanded into a growth of employment and increase in state of living for many in nepal, and is still going after Bill has passed. That seems to be successful from your point of view. They even constructed and filled their own shop, so the growth was fairly significant.

However there is more to life than money. Lots of people would prefer to define success, and yes even business, that isn't so focused on money. I have dealt with many knife makers who for example from time to time will do things like grinding, heat treating, etc. for very low costs so that they lose money.

They do it for many reasons, they appreciate that others have done it for them and thus pass along the help to other makers and users at time and simply like working with people who like knives and cutlery. I would not be so quick to judge them as less successful simply because they make less money.

But success is a personal thing, it simply means to achieve goals you have set. Not everyone sets goals based on money. Everyone is free of course to define their personal success in what ever way they want.

You still are talking about how you WANT business done ...
Not really, I don't care one way or the other how "The Bright Edge" handles it practices, I was just noting that the way in which anyone was treated in this thread was hardly constructive and that it can be handled in a different way. It doesn't effect me one way or the other either way.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
I was just noting that the way in which anyone was treated in this thread was hardly constructive and that it can be handled in a different way.


Maybe you need to go back and reread your posts. :rolleyes:


By the way, there is a direct route from "Point A" to "Point B." For some reason, and not surprising, you elected to take us through the rest of the alphabet. :rolleyes:
 
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Kohai999 said:
I was pulling a Stamp, and comparing/ contrasting one business mode to another, Made you kind of irritated, huh?
:eek: Pulled a Stamp! LMAO! THE TRUTH HURTS! :p
 
I think Cliff's contrasting example of how he think a business should be run is clear.

Unless you think being argumentative, stubborn, having a big ego, and is happy trying to get rid of defective merchandise by dumping it on customers, a good way of doing business.
 
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