Nutnfancy makes video supporting fake Chinese XM18

[seelow123]

I'll be shocked if he shows his face at any major knife show again. I'll bet the folks at Kershaw/ZT and likely RH himself would tell him where to stick those knock-offs if he did.

I'd pay to see that. I hope the negativity that video is receiving will give him a bit of a wake up call. It probably won't though.

Watching him open knives is just painful.

 

[mcrow]

...And he does indeed identify them as imitations and points out quality differences.

So many people are so angry that he talked about a knife. He didn't say "get this instead of a Hinderer", "this is a hinderer", or "go here and buy these instead of Hinderers". He discussed the knives, the obvious similarities, the quality differences, and his experiences with them. That is indeed what a consumer advocate would do.

Ok so we're going to ignore the part where he says these are good knives, trashes an established knife maker and tells you the price difference...ect but we're going to pretend he's not advocating buying these over Hinderer? He even mentions about the guys that can't afford Hinderers and that they can afford the $80 fake. He Repeatedly talks about "Kershaw better watch it" regarding the price of the ZT because they basically deserve to have fakes made if they charge $260 for a knife.

Do you ever see consumer reports reviewing fake products in this manner?

What you're doing is confusing a "consumer" advocate with an "intellectual rights" advocate.
Few, if any, would be fool enough to state that it's a good thing that these knife manufacturers purport to be the genuine article. He is not one of those few.

No, a consumer advocate would be more concerned that the consumer is getting what they think they're paying for than and the quality of the product they think they're getting. Again, consumer reports and the like would never give this level of attention to a fake product.

 

[sticktodrum]

He didn't say "get this instead of a Hinderer", "this is a hinderer", or "go here and buy these instead of Hinderers". He discussed the knives, the obvious similarities, the quality differences, and his experiences with them. That is indeed what a consumer advocate would do.

He did say:

"This knife gives this knife, a run for its money, and then some,"
"I'll tell you this though, by the time you watch this video you're probably going to want at least one or two of these knives."
"You're already buying Chinese knives, all you're doing is paying a middle-man...I may put a link in the right, cut out the middle-man, go right to China."
"You could have a very affordable knife collection, the only thing is you're going over to China, DIRECT from China. No middle-man."
"You could buy 11 of these knives for 1 of the Zero Tolerance 0560 series...so there you go."
"This knife specifically...I would say is 90% as good as this knife (0560), in terms of use. Perhaps even 100% depending on your point of view."


So you're right, he didn't say "Get this instead of a Hinderer", but what did he say in the entirety of his presentation? He said plenty.

 

[Scurvy092]

He did say:

"This knife gives this knife, a run for its money, and then some,"
"I'll tell you this though, by the time you watch this video you're probably going to want at least one or two of these knives."
"You're already buying Chinese knives, all you're doing is paying a middle-man...I may put a link in the right, cut out the middle-man, go right to China."
"You could have a very affordable knife collection, the only thing is you're going over to China, DIRECT from China. No middle-man."
"You could buy 11 of these knives for 1 of the Zero Tolerance 0560 series...so there you go."
"This knife specifically...I would say is 90% as good as this knife (0560), in terms of use. Perhaps even 100% depending on your point of view."


So you're right, he didn't say "Get this instead of a Hinderer", but what did he say in the entirety of his presentation? He said plenty.

You don't even have to dig into it that far.

For all the people claiming he is just trying to inform and isn't advocating for it just look at the title of the video:

HINDERER KNOCKOFF IS GOOD

 

[sticktodrum]

You don't even have to dig into it that far.

For all the people claiming he is just trying to inform and isn't advocating for it just look at the title of the video:

HINDERER KNOCKOFF IS GOOD

Can't believe I missed that... HAH!

 

[Thomas Linton]

The legislative purpose of trademark laws is to protect the public from "good" fakes that include the trademark of the real maker.

Those advocating for trademark violators are clearly anti-consumer.

And scum.

 

[Mal2]

The counterfeits are not going to hurt legitimate sales from trusted and well known sources. They may even help. The harm will come to the after market. They are good enough to fool most of the people most of the time so aftermarket trust will take a huge hit. This will force legitimate buyers to the large, well established sellers and the manufacturers. Anyone that actually wants a Hinderer or a CRK is not going to buy a fake instead. He may even be convinced to buy the real thing from handling and using the fake. I personally think Chinese copies would sell better than the counterfeits and they are wrong in counterfeiting commercially as well as morally.

Having said that, the other questions of what is similar, a copy, a counterfeit, theft of intellectual property and so on is just not that simple, there are shades of grey and everybody has to decide where they stand. I'm all for the law, wherever, taking a stand and protecting IP but the way these knives are being sold it is near impossible. I believe the SRM 710 is different enough to be deemed original, the Inron is a copy and the China Hinderer a counterfeit.

As for Nutin, he amuses me. I'm always open to reasonable comments no matter how far they may deviate from my own. I admit to not watching the whole video in question but I don't mind an objective description of the copies. I think, however, he should have simply stated that there are actual counterfeits of XXX knives being imported and that the buying public should be cautious they aren't fooled by them. Counterfeiting is illegal in the US, IMHO it is wrong everywhere. A review that does anything but expose them as counterfeits is also wrong.

 

[Maprik]

So a clarification of terms: knockoff; homage. The CHP is a fake. We got that. My problem lies with those knives the are of the same general design(homage?) but are obviously not trying to be passed off as that knife. Those I call knock-offs. How this is on topic Dorito is that he said in the vid that you can't beat the My803 for the money. He did endorse it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, your saying if their not trying to pass it off as a Hinderer or CRK it's ok?

Sure!!! If I make and sell an exact replica of your invention called the Widget but I call it a Poor man's Widget then it's all good!!! It's like if I copy your book and sell it as my own work but under a different title! Nothing wrong with that!

 

[Jaytaylor]

A big fat Boooooooooo to nuttingpansy........try to justify this crap however you like, stealing is stealing.

There are several Hinderer designed and licensed blades available ranging from $50 up, why endorse this crap? a lack of moral fiber.

Fake knives, like fake watches, are for fake people.

 

[digdeep]

Wow, I just thought I'd take a peek at this thread and see what's the commotion. Seems this topic of nutnfancy's video has blown away all other posts in audience viewing.

Not to be too off-topic but does this break a record for the most replies and most views in the shortest amount of time?

Sorry for the interruption.

 

[Oakengroves]

Alert the Media: Nutnfancy has made another contradictory, asinine, laughably egotistical, and completely ridiculous "knife review" video on behalf of a minority of paranoid, group-think individuals ("TNPERs"). I'm not surprised, and you should not be surprised either for the following reasons:

1. Nutnfancy Masquerades Subjective Opinion as Objective Fact - When I first started collecting knives, I enjoyed watching Nutnfancy videos because he was one of the few knife reviewers on youtube at the time. In the early days, his reviews were tempered with a small amount of modesty and underscored by purely subjective opinion. In those early days, Nutnfancy would provide a succinct review and emphasize his subjective assessment of knives. Now, since that magical point in time where his channel evolved from "dude doing knife reviews" to "TNP PROJECT, DUDEZ[,]" Nutnfancy attempts to masquerade subjective opinion about knives as objective fact. His obsession with jimping is a prime example. As most people who have fought with knives will agree, jimping as to support a saber grip is not a feasible design feature in a tactical knife (as most knife fighting occurs with a hammer or icepick grip as to promote grip). Instead, we find multiple manufacturers bowing to his inflated and baseless preferences and modifying knife designs to include jimping to degrees that prohibit extended cutting use.

By all means, voice approval for your subjective knife preferences. However, do NOT - especially when you command a sizable following - profess your personal subjective beliefs on knife designs as objective truth and influence knife manufacturers to cater to design aspects that do not serve the vast majority of most consumers. This includes the subjective belief that it is "okay for price" to support Chinese intellectual property infringement. I could spout of dozens of reason why it is legally and ethically immoral to support Chinese theft, but this thread summarizes those beliefs well. Nutnfancy may present a casual "oh bro, this is what I think, bro," tone, but his reviews are underscored by persistent and constant references to statements that he considers objectively true.

2. Nutnfancy Does Not Know What The Hell He is Talking About and Contradicts his Arbitrary Opinions - Nutnfancy frequently opines over knife designs that he is not qualified to assert. He has, for instance, claimed CM154 is a superior steel to CPM-M4 (BM 810 review). He has, on several occasions, supported products that blatantly violate the intellectual property rights of U.S. knife designers, including his most recent video. Now, he continues to spew forth ridiculous and hilarious assertions that contradict his recent trend of laughably politically charged "gear rights" videos. As some posters have mentioned, Nutnfancy has devoted considerable resources to the domestic gun lobby in response to Obama's re-election. He has, in a sense, bolstered his own image by wrapping himself in a red-white-and-blue "SECOND AMENDMENT USA" flag.

This guise is rendered both ridiculous and contradictory by video reviews that bow to the alter of Chinese copyright infringements. Again, supporting the Second Amendment is a noble goal, especially when done so by invoking patriotic themes. However, to stand a-top a box and cry out for "PRO-USA" rights, while at the same time supporting Chinese intellectual property theft, is contradictory and ridiculous. Nutnfancy's time would be better spent reading books about metallurgy, reviewing Ankerson blade-test posts, or engaging in any number of activities (beyond egotistical rambling) that would enhance his knowledge of knives.

3. You Should Not Watch Nutnfancy Knife Reviews Or Subscribe to His Channel - Quit watching his reviews. Quit subscribing to his channels. Quit talking about him. He will command, due to his distastefully bro aesthetic, enormous ego, and pandering to individuals prone to paranoia-inspired groupthink, a sizable following for the years to come. But this does not mean his voice should carry disproportionate weight. There are countless GREAT knife reviewers-who actually put forth effort to understand the knife industry and metallurgy-who live in the shadow of Nutnfancy's obscene ego for no reason whatsoever (Jdavis882, Dan at Bladereviews, and Darkchild come to mind).

I implore you to ignore his childish and paranoid antics. I encourage you to seek out any number of valuable resources that provide, fair, consistent, and meaningful assessments of knives. Many of the best resources are right here on Bladeforums.

It is past time that people who care about U.S. domestic knife production begin supporting reviewers and sources of information that are consistent with values that promote U.S. domestic knife production. Nutnfancy is not one of those sources, and his childish antics should be disregarded.

 

[Gramps]

I will as well say this....and it is in NO WAY to offer the cover of mitigation to these Chinese manufactures who blatantly copy proprietary designs.....when the US knife industry took some of their production to China they "opened a can of worms" ( I'll do my best to not mix too many metaphors). The Chinese business model is to lure any and all industry along with their expertise and proprietary innovations on to the the Mainland and then appropriate that knowledge, transferring it to Chinese owned production. Encouraged, facilitated and underwritten by the Chinese government this business model offers no cover or protection to foreign owners similar to what you would find in the US. The chickens have come home to roost. In my opinion no knife manufacture can call "fowl" ( pardon the pun ), when they have willfully exported even just some of their production to a nation that blatantly encourages intellectual property theft. Pursuing quick profit, all US industry in general is now paying dearly, lured by Chinese financing as well as cheap labor and raw materials.

Again....my comments are NOT intended to excuse Chinese behavior, but rather to offer a perspective.

 

[Jaytaylor]

I may start up my own product - a $5 folding knife, tastlessly painted with a camo pattern and N'pansy stamped down the side of the blade togehter with MADE IN USA and CPMS90V courtesy of our IP disregarding cussies in China.....

 

[JSMcustoms]

Most people are sheep that need to follow someone, and for many, that someone is Nutn. And he pushes his favorite brand - Microtech - over every other brand. Okay, Nut, you like Microtech. That brand helped you save lives in the Air Force or whatever. Now do some unbiased reviews. There are other superb brands out there that don't start with Micro and end with Tech.

All of his reviews seem to be biased in someway or another. I can see how someone would be a little biased to their favorite knife company and this is unavoidable to an extent I believe. However, it is a reviewer's 'job' to do as unbiased of a review as possible.



As for the video, this has killed any an all respect that I may or may not have held for the man. I'm not saying that I would openly disrespect/flame him etc as that in a way brings me down or least is a good start at bringing me down to the same level of him. On that note, I have to respectively disagree with anyone that condones theft and can not support someone that does in any manner.

 

[unlimitednights]

I think a lot of people are missing the mark on why some are upset about this.

Its not that he is reviewing a Chinese knife, and for most people its not even so much that a Chinese company is ripping off one of Rick's designs. It is chiefly that Nutn is recommending the knife. He is praising it as a quality piece, he is, in essence taking away business from Rick Hinderer or KAI. Its shit like this that drives me crazy about him, "I'm not going to get into the politics(even though I am clearly a very right wing pro-American)".

It doesn't bother me deeply, but this is lame as hell.

 

[Dorito Monk]

So a clarification of terms: knockoff; homage. The CHP is a fake. We got that. My problem lies with those knives the are of the same general design(homage?) but are obviously not trying to be passed off as that knife. Those I call knock-offs. How this is on topic Dorito is that he said in the vid that you can't beat the My803 for the money. He did endorse it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, your saying if their not trying to pass it off as a Hinderer or CRK it's ok?

Ah, I see. It does seem like you're concerned chiefly with the 'knockoff' knives (ie: knives which have taken design notes or even taken designs entirely from other makers, but which are not counterfeits or forgeries). Knives that include, say, the Ganzo G704, SRM 710, Inron 803, etc. Would those be what you're talking about? Not the chinese-made hinderers/striders/chris reeves that are stamped and marketed as genuine hinderers/striders/chris reeves?

I generally don't care about them at all. Yes, they are knockoffs as often as not, or suspiciously similar to other designs. The people whose knives they're 'knocking off' aren't going to lose a dime to these folks, though (nobody who is prepared to buy a 300-400$ small sebenza is going to just buy a 7$ SRM instead and forget all about the Chris Reeve), and no innocent bystander is going to accidentally buy a SRM thinking that they were going to get a Chris Reeve. If, say, the original maker was going to lose business to these folks in a major way or something, I'd probably care more about it, but Rick Hinderer isn't ever going to lose any 600$+ knife sales to competition from 10$ Inron 803s. Benchmade didn't lose any sales on their 14205s to the Ganzo G704, either, for that matter.

On one hand, I don't really care what other people do with their money. It's not my place to impose some kind of cheap morality lesson on someone else for buying chinese junk. Furthermore, I don't really care when, say, Sanrenmu makes a design suspiciously similar to a small sebenza, but puts their own name on it and is straightforward about the product they're selling.

So, yeah, those knives scarcely matter to me at all. With all the ACTUAL scumbaggery and nonsense out there, nobody should go giving themselves an ulcer over friggin' 10$ knockoff pocket knives. When the original makers aren't losing any money over them, and nobody's being cheated out of their hard-earned shekkles by some forger or counterfeiter, I'm definitely not going to lose any sleep over it.

 

[RobertK]

Lots and lots of piling on in this thread. I wasn't going to comment, but it keeps getting bumped so—whatever. I really like the TNP page and I really like Nutn, even when/f I disagree. I don't think he's annoying, and I like that he, apparently, puts out his opinions clearly and without apology. That's somewhat rare. I admit it—I'm a fan.

I'll admit, though, this video got my first thumbs down on YouTube. I am sorry, but that's that. The Chinese Hinderers could be great clones, but they are that, copies—forgeries—even putting the Hinderer name on knives not by Hinderer. How he's review those is beyond me. I'm really disappointed. I really like the man, I really do—and I'm really disappointed.

 

[Scurvy092]

There are countless GREAT knife reviewers-who actually put forth effort to understand the knife industry and metallurgy-who live in the shadow of Nutnfancy's obscene ego for no reason whatsoever (Jdavis882, Dan at Bladereviews, and Darkchild come to mind).

Best reviewer on Youtube!!

 

[Inthewind]

My opinion probably wont be very popular so what the h***. Yeah their blatant ripoffs of the hinderer, yeah they came from the Peoples Republic, and yeah he supports them. Am i gonna support them............no, ive had my share of chinese knives (i sold most of them). But to be honest he did give a fairly unbiased review of the knives, he left politics out and he just talked knives. Remember most people start off with cheaper knives and move up the ladder, i started with nutn then i found bladeforums and moved on, but he did do one very important thing for me, he helped get my addiction started.

But i am curious do people want to go back to the time that all chinese knives were crap? Because people laugh at really bad knockoffs and the people that carry them, but they get really angry when companies make quality knockoffs and at the people that carry and like them.

 

[Livefreeordie92]

Reported the video for advertizing illegal copies. You all should go do the same