People who blatantly and fraudulently sell knives as hand made when they are blanks..

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Very interesting thread.

I learned a lot about Chris Williams, mostly from Chris Williams himself. And I love the irony here:

ChrisWilliams said:
if you have specific questions for me, here are 3 ways you can get in touch with me "Live", man to man, not behind an anonymous keyboard...

followed by his sock puppet post later in the thread. :rolleyes: That sort of clinched my opinions.

Ethics are important and this is one of the reasons that I read GBU regularly. This thread has been illuminating on more than one front. ;)
 
.....

Good Friday night. Or it was before I got a call that once again leading into the weekend that I had an issue at blade forums. Let me be 100% vehemently clear to this thread and anyone that lays eyes on it, Chris, or anyone you claim me to be, is not nor has not made any post to this forum after I told you that I would not long ago. But the latest allegations are troubling enough that I thought I would be very clear on a few other things too:

1) I do not care how Kevin or Twelve Bravo operates his company nor make any claims to how he does conduct his business. Its his business, not mine. I do not care about how Kevin or bladeforums operates for the matter. Have I showed some of the information about the forum and its origins to people at ground zero of this situation about the aforementioned, you're darn right I have. Are some of these people very close to me and my operations both geographically and emotionally, some of them even with livelihoods that depend on the hard work we do in my business each day, and are they upset, you're darn right they are. But I am handling my displeasure through other channels not by posting on this site.

2) I didn't even know exactly what an ip address designated until the other week when I began dealing with specific issues associated with this but I will say that as written from one of the posters in the forum in this thread that there are numerous businesses, even a great computer guru who taught me all about determining who people are by their ip addresses when they posted on our sites, located in the same complex as my shop and some of us share (some unknowingly to those of us that pay the bill even) a really robust internet system. I am making no claim about whether something was or was not posted from a similar ip address that I use for my business. I don't know that answer, I am looking at the same screen of threads you are and those are the only facts I have in front of me. Heck, I don't even know what our ip address is. But are there people that share my business complex that are just as upset about this situation and allegations as I am, you're darn right they are. I have seen someone saying it was my address and a quote from Kevin saying it was but that is all I have seen at this point and I wouldn't even know what our address is. So you can move on to the next accusation about me all you want, you can post and post and post otherwise but I am telling you right now, it was not me! The real interesting thing is that my 3 posts prior to this one, and the only posts I've ever made on this site were from my family's lake home which is 4 hours from my shop while I was taking time with my family before school started which I clearly stated. So who knows, maybe we have house guests up there that are taking time from their night to post on bladeforums for some reason? Nothing surprises me about this entire situation. But again, it was not me that posted anything. I said my piece and left a long time ago not to return until now. Believe what you want, I know what I know.

3) Did I hang up on Mr. Sanders the other night when he called, after I told him it was a terrible time with school starting back the next day for my family and he went on and on and on, you're darn right I did. I see he failed to mention this to you and wanted to be completely clear about this allegation and in fairness to him and everyone who might claim I didn't honor my word you need to know exactly why I did that. I told any of you that you were welcome to call me. I should have been more clear about what "anytime" meant and a few instances where it might not be a good time. My apologies Mr. Sanders, you caught me at a terribly bad time.

4) To answer the question that so many of you have failed to understand my answer to already. Do I use "blanks"? For a portion of my work I use "blanks". I use "blanks" that are machined to specs that we have found to be very useful and capable knife designs. Ones we like, you may not, but we do. Do some of them look like ones that others make and use/sell everyday, you're darn right they do. Why would I want to get in the tire business and try to come to market with a square tire? We all know round works best. Make note, these "blanks" as you like to call them are as good as any knife that "I" have laid "my hands" on. I stress, "my hands". You most certainly all will have opinions otherwise. And for each his own. Not once on this site or any where for that matter have I ever said my knives were better than anyone else's. Along those lines, I didn't come to bladeforums marketing a darn thing and certainly never came here and claimed mine were any better than yours, I never even knew of this site until I was so kindly invited. My knives are the best that I can come to market with, and this changes daily, weekly, monthly as we learn and experiment more and more. I stand behind my "blanks" that we use for certain designs because for me, they work great and make great knives, in my opinion. Plain and simple. And I stand firmly behind them. At the end of the day, the people that claim my stuff stinks don't have to stand behind them for quality, regardless of how much they say they are in their opinion "substandard". Not to me they aren't. What I don't feel obligated to do is to give you my "formula" for how I operate my business. You may attack me and my credibility but that doesn't mean I owe you a copy of my business plan. If I am missing something here, call me to discuss. I am not going to invite a bunch of naysayers into my shop or my life for that matter because no matter what I posted, videoed, said, etc. it wouldn't ever be enough. Very counter productive for me to try and please everyone, especially those in my same line of work. That's "Business 101", find your niche, get good at producing a quality product in whatever means you have to do so and create a product you can sell and stand behind. So in review, repeat after me, do I use "blanks", yes, I use "blanks" in a portion of my work. If any interested party is considering one of my knives for purchase, I will be happy to walk them through exactly where a particular one originates and if there is machining involved to make them really great knives. I have had hundreds of people to my shop before this originated and not once did I have a person tell me that he or she was leaving because we didn't make knives like we were supposed to be making them or that we misrepresented ourselves.

Finally 5) I never set out to misrepresent myself or my business. If you think I did, and you suffered harm in some way you seem fit to describe, I will be the first to stand in front of you and attempt to make it right. I told you all that exact statement the very first time I posted to this site and took the necessary steps to correct anything that could possibly be considered misleading that I have the power to correct, and did so regardless of my conviction of what I think certain statements mean. I make knives, maybe not how you make knives, but I make knives. And really good ones in my eyes. You think that my oyster knife garnered attention because it looks good? Nope, because it opens oysters the best way "we" could come up with. And people used it and low and behold it worked, great actually. Like a lot of my knives do. The junior national oyster eating champion, who placed 3rd the previous three years before trying one of mine, actually won with it the first year he had it. That's a plain and simple fact. If for my business, machining and taking human error out of some of the process to achieve a good knife on certain pieces is wrong, I am missing something here. But you are right, not all of them are 100% hand made according to your definition and as soon as this was an issue with this community and brought to my attention, whether I thought it was right or not or that in my mind what we did was a heckuva lot of hand working, I took the any reference down that I could. Yes Kevin Tupper, every reference I had any control over and continue to do so even now. You are labeling me as a fraud for a definition of a word that some of you deem questionable in text before I was even made aware that to this community it may be misconstrued. When people have visited my shop, I have never been told that what we do is not "hand made". And for that matter, no where, although its been quoted on here in error several times, have I ever, ever, ever said that 100% of my knives were 100% "hand made" as you have said I have. This is just an untrue allegation. And I most certainly did not ever refer to myself as a "Master Bladesmith", nothing I am interested in for me or my business plan. I have lots of respect for those of a certain organization that work to attain this, but I have never made that a focus nor claimed I have. Again, completely untrue that I have ever said that. Do I feel like I am mastering my work that I do in my eyes, you're darn right I do. I do a damn fine job too. But back to this line item, gee freaking whiz, I am sorry to you if you have an opinion that I misrepresented myself to you and have already clearly stated that. It would be one thing if I ignored your opinions and did nothing about it, but I have taken the steps to make sure otherwise and would appreciate at a minimum some reprieve. Numerous times has it been said in this thread that the issue was the representation of my product, well, I think I have done what I need to do to represent my work as it should be and operate my business now accordingly. I am moving forward now as I won't argue any longer with anyone on the matter. My knives are really great custom knives made in the south and I stand behind that fact 100%. Bash all you want, I will not be back to see the ad naseum arguments from every opinion this side of the moon. It does me no good. I have already told you that I respect your opinion, but it is just that, "your" opinion. Not mine and nothing I can control, nor believe about the quality of the product we produce.

To any potential, past or present customers of mine, you have all the means necessary to discuss this with me and I will gladly do just that. In the meantime, I am going to go back to doing what I think is the best thing I can do, and that is to make great knives in my eyes, give great customer service and leave something I now have no control over to those that want to continue to do what they do. Good or bad, we think we make a great product within our best means possible. Oh and I almost forgot, we use "blanks" in a portion of our work. Really great "blanks" that make really "great" knives with really "great" customer service and a really "great" lifetime warranty. Is that clear enough forum, its the best I can do. Carry on.
 
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Have one of your children explain to you how IP addresses work.
And the meaning of "same" versus "similar".

Spark said:
ChrisWilliams 74.243.233.119 [Find Latest Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]
sammythebull1952 74.243.233.119 [Find Latest Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]
(bolding mine)
 
Another wall-o-text

Would you like to explain the sammythebull1952 account tracing to the same IP you are using right now to post? Actually don't bother. ...I'm sure one of your employees logged on to a company computer in your vast and no doubt sprawling shop to post in your defense. It's time to cut bait Mr. Williams as the BS meter is pegged.
 
Have one of your children explain to you how IP addresses work.
And the meaning of "same" versus "similar".


(bolding mine)

This ^ It wasn't a "similar" IP address, it was the same address. At least Chris Williams finally had the guts to admit he uses premade blanks while lying to his customers about marketing them as handmade.
 
wow...give it a rest people. nothing but drama queens. he just explained the situation (whether you agree or not), stop picking everything he says apart...this will be the last time i check this thread and i'm sure i will get bashed but a lot of you need to get a life and stay out of this guys. peace
 
Thing is.... Mr. Williams claims he made his previous posts from his home address while sammythebull52 must've made them from his shop 4hrs away from his residence. Either Mr. Williams is lying about his location or sammythebull actually lives at Mr. Williams residence or sammythebull is in fact Mr. Williams himself posting under duplicate account. Apparently, {My Opinion} Mr. Williams is as clueless about internet technology as he is about business ethics.
 
My knives are really great custom knives made in the south and I stand behind that fact 100%.

How can you say that these knives are made in the south? How can you even claim that they are made in the USA? From what I have seen you are using blanks from Premium knife supply. Their website indicates that their blanks are made overseas. I think at best you could say that the knives are "assembled in the USA".
 
It's funny how honest craftsmen don't feel the need to defend themselves with a bullshit wall of text that amounts to a hill of beans in realityland. :D
 
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A problem with his works in the same building theory...each computer using a host has an individual IP address. To have used the same IP address = using the exact same computer. The only way around this would be to use only one computer, turn it off, and turn on another using the same host.

The likelihood of this is slim to none. Although I could be completely wrong. The stars could have all aligned to form a series of events that had two people, using the same computer, or the same host after switching computers, who have both heard a forum is trying to expose a potentially bad business, all the while both individuals share the same opinion of the subject, and also are the only two people who disagree with what is being discussed on said forum. It could be all that.


Or it could he that one person is using an assumed handle.


I don't like the thought of trashing any business that someone has worked hard for, but to represent work that would have a cost breakdown of $30 steel + $200-400 in handles doesn't sit right with me.

This is exactly what happened when lexicon (a high end audio brand) was found to be using the exact same internals as a $500 blu ray player, putting a new shell on the outside, then selling it for $3000.

Put that inexpensive but high quality blanks are used on the site that sells these knives and I have a feeling that either sales would fall or price would fall.
 
Good Friday night.......

4) To answer the question that so many of you have failed to understand my answer to already. Do I use "blanks"? For a portion of my work I use "blanks" I use "blanks" that are machined to specs that we have found to be very useful and capable knife designs.

In my opinion the portion of blanks is 100%

(Please note I use the words "In my opinion", as I am terrified of a certain Lawyer who can not state the correct name of the individual he is advising his client to sue)
 
Of course, I'm sure that Williams knives wouldn't at all mind if you made knives from the "similar" blanks pointed out earlier, put some (admittedly very nice) wood on them, and then went after the same market at a quarter of his asking prices, and used the same implied "custom" and "handmade" verbiage....
 
Oh, and sidthemuss....if you're so unconcerned about drama and what happens to other people....what were you doing here? <does not compute>
 
There's such a thing as a "national oyster eating champion"? Heh.

As a wise man named Morrow once said, "it's time to stop now". We've seen this so many times before that it's pretty much cliche by now. Someone gets called on something, legalsleaze gets bandied about while inflating an image, mysterious strangers sneak onto the subject's computer and post in their defense before vanishing into the mist. It's nothing new and we know the routine. The next stage is usually cursing everyone out before departing with a devastated customer base. That being optional, I'd advise against it.

You do a job you're proud of, you put food on the table, maybe you keep a few people employed. All good things and nothing to be ashamed of. When you get called on something you weren't really aware of, the best solution is to go "Oh, I wasn't aware that my ad copy was confusing or not inline with the common terminology. My bad.", fix it, and move on with life. Bluster and falsehoods have never worked for anyone who's went that route. Well, maybe Strider. The best lesson you can take here is to just calm down and look at the issue logically. Every issue shouldn't need to turn into a major event. Just my opinion.

The text of this post in no way represents the opinions or intentions of BladeForums.com, TwelveBravo, Kevin Schlossberg, John Schlossberg, Tuvold Snurlson, or myself five minutes from now.
 
Good Friday night. Or it was before I got a call that once again leading into the weekend that I had an issue at blade forums. Let me be 100% vehemently clear to this thread and anyone that lays eyes on it, Chris, or anyone you claim me to be, is not nor has not made any post to this forum after I told you that I would not long ago. But the latest allegations are troubling enough that I thought I would be very clear on a few other things too:

1) I do not care how Kevin or Twelve Bravo operates his company nor make any claims to how he does conduct his business. Its his business, not mine. I do not care about how Kevin or bladeforums operates for the matter. Have I showed some of the information about the forum and its origins to people at ground zero of this situation about the aforementioned, you're darn right I have. Are some of these people very close to me and my operations both geographically and emotionally, some of them even with livelihoods that depend on the hard work we do in my business each day, and are they upset, you're darn right they are. But I am handling my displeasure through other channels not by posting on this site.

2) I didn't even know exactly what an ip address designated until the other week when I began dealing with specific issues associated with this but I will say that as written from one of the posters in the forum in this thread that there are numerous businesses, even a great computer guru who taught me all about determining who people are by their ip addresses when they posted on our sites, located in the same complex as my shop and some of us share (some unknowingly to those of us that pay the bill even) a really robust internet system. I am making no claim about whether something was or was not posted from a similar ip address that I use for my business. I don't know that answer, I am looking at the same screen of threads you are and those are the only facts I have in front of me. Heck, I don't even know what our ip address is. But are there people that share my business complex that are just as upset about this situation and allegations as I am, you're darn right they are. I have seen someone saying it was my address and a quote from Kevin saying it was but that is all I have seen at this point and I wouldn't even know what our address is. So you can move on to the next accusation about me all you want, you can post and post and post otherwise but I am telling you right now, it was not me! The real interesting thing is that my 3 posts prior to this one, and the only posts I've ever made on this site were from my family's lake home which is 4 hours from my shop while I was taking time with my family before school started which I clearly stated. So who knows, maybe we have house guests up there that are taking time from their night to post on bladeforums for some reason? Nothing surprises me about this entire situation. But again, it was not me that posted anything. I said my piece and left a long time ago not to return until now. Believe what you want, I know what I know.

3) Did I hang up on Mr. Sanders the other night when he called, after I told him it was a terrible time with school starting back the next day for my family and he went on and on and on, you're darn right I did. I see he failed to mention this to you and wanted to be completely clear about this allegation and in fairness to him and everyone who might claim I didn't honor my word you need to know exactly why I did that. I told any of you that you were welcome to call me. I should have been more clear about what "anytime" meant and a few instances where it might not be a good time. My apologies Mr. Sanders, you caught me at a terribly bad time.

4) To answer the question that so many of you have failed to understand my answer to already. Do I use "blanks"? For a portion of my work I use "blanks". I use "blanks" that are machined to specs that we have found to be very useful and capable knife designs. Ones we like, you may not, but we do. Do some of them look like ones that others make and use/sell everyday, you're darn right they do. Why would I want to get in the tire business and try to come to market with a square tire? We all know round works best. Make note, these "blanks" as you like to call them are as good as any knife that "I" have laid "my hands" on. I stress, "my hands". You most certainly all will have opinions otherwise. And for each his own. Not once on this site or any where for that matter have I ever said my knives were better than anyone else's. Along those lines, I didn't come to bladeforums marketing a darn thing and certainly never came here and claimed mine were any better than yours, I never even knew of this site until I was so kindly invited. My knives are the best that I can come to market with, and this changes daily, weekly, monthly as we learn and experiment more and more. I stand behind my "blanks" that we use for certain designs because for me, they work great and make great knives, in my opinion. Plain and simple. And I stand firmly behind them. At the end of the day, the people that claim my stuff stinks don't have to stand behind them for quality, regardless of how much they say they are in their opinion "substandard". Not to me they aren't. What I don't feel obligated to do is to give you my "formula" for how I operate my business. You may attack me and my credibility but that doesn't mean I owe you a copy of my business plan. If I am missing something here, call me to discuss. I am not going to invite a bunch of naysayers into my shop or my life for that matter because no matter what I posted, videoed, said, etc. it wouldn't ever be enough. Very counter productive for me to try and please everyone, especially those in my same line of work. That's "Business 101", find your niche, get good at producing a quality product in whatever means you have to do so and create a product you can sell and stand behind. So in review, repeat after me, do I use "blanks", yes, I use "blanks" in a portion of my work. If any interested party is considering one of my knives for purchase, I will be happy to walk them through exactly where a particular one originates and if there is machining involved to make them really great knives. I have had hundreds of people to my shop before this originated and not once did I have a person tell me that he or she was leaving because we didn't make knives like we were supposed to be making them or that we misrepresented ourselves.

Finally 5) I never set out to misrepresent myself or my business. If you think I did, and you suffered harm in some way you seem fit to describe, I will be the first to stand in front of you and attempt to make it right. I told you all that exact statement the very first time I posted to this site and took the necessary steps to correct anything that could possibly be considered misleading that I have the power to correct, and did so regardless of my conviction of what I think certain statements mean. I make knives, maybe not how you make knives, but I make knives. And really good ones in my eyes. You think that my oyster knife garnered attention because it looks good? Nope, because it opens oysters the best way "we" could come up with. And people used it and low and behold it worked, great actually. Like a lot of my knives do. The junior national oyster eating champion, who placed 3rd the previous three years before trying one of mine, actually won with it the first year he had it. That's a plain and simple fact. If for my business, machining and taking human error out of some of the process to achieve a good knife on certain pieces is wrong, I am missing something here. But you are right, not all of them are 100% hand made according to your definition and as soon as this was an issue with this community and brought to my attention, whether I thought it was right or not or that in my mind what we did was a heckuva lot of hand working, I took the any reference down that I could. Yes Kevin Tupper, every reference I had any control over and continue to do so even now. You are labeling me as a fraud for a definition of a word that some of you deem questionable in text before I was even made aware that to this community it may be misconstrued. When people have visited my shop, I have never been told that what we do is not "hand made". And for that matter, no where, although its been quoted on here in error several times, have I ever, ever, ever said that 100% of my knives were 100% "hand made" as you have said I have. This is just an untrue allegation. And I most certainly did not ever refer to myself as a "Master Bladesmith", nothing I am interested in for me or my business plan. I have lots of respect for those of a certain organization that work to attain this, but I have never made that a focus nor claimed I have. Again, completely untrue that I have ever said that. Do I feel like I am mastering my work that I do in my eyes, you're darn right I do. I do a damn fine job too. But back to this line item, gee freaking whiz, I am sorry to you if you have an opinion that I misrepresented myself to you and have already clearly stated that. It would be one thing if I ignored your opinions and did nothing about it, but I have taken the steps to make sure otherwise and would appreciate at a minimum some reprieve. Numerous times has it been said in this thread that the issue was the representation of my product, well, I think I have done what I need to do to represent my work as it should be and operate my business now accordingly. I am moving forward now as I won't argue any longer with anyone on the matter. My knives are really great custom knives made in the south and I stand behind that fact 100%. Bash all you want, I will not be back to see the ad naseum arguments from every opinion this side of the moon. It does me no good. I have already told you that I respect your opinion, but it is just that, "your" opinion. Not mine and nothing I can control, nor believe about the quality of the product we produce.

To any potential, past or present customers of mine, you have all the means necessary to discuss this with me and I will gladly do just that. In the meantime, I am going to go back to doing what I think is the best thing I can do, and that is to make great knives in my eyes, give great customer service and leave something I now have no control over to those that want to continue to do what they do. Good or bad, we think we make a great product within our best means possible. Oh and I almost forgot, we use "blanks" in a portion of our work. Really great "blanks" that make really "great" knives with really "great" customer service and a really "great" lifetime warranty. Is that clear enough forum, its the best I can do. Carry on.

It's not just "our" definition of "handmade", it's the English definition of "handmade".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/handmade?s=t

Also here is a direct quote from the FTC's official policy statement on misrepresentation since you undoubtedly didn't read any of it from my previous post on the subject.

"Third, the representation, omission, or practice must be a "material" one. The basic question is whether the act or practice is likely to affect the consumer's conduct or decision with regard to a product or service. If so, the practice is material, and consumer injury is likely, because consumers are likely to have chosen differently but for the deception. In many instances, materiality, and hence injury, can be presumed from the nature of the practice. In other instances, evidence of materiality may be necessary"

"Thus, the Commission will find deception if there is a representation, omission or practice that is likely to mislead the consumer acting reasonably in the circumstances, to the consumer's detriment. We discuss each of these elements below."


Stating that your product is "100% Handmade from blade to sheath" would most likely lead a reasonable person to ascertain that your product was 100% handmade by you from raw materials, and that no part of your product was produced by a third party. You don't think your past customers would have chosen differently and not paid extremely high prices for a knife / blade that was mass manufactured and sold elsewhere much cheaper through other suppliers if they had known?

Also I'd like to know how you respect all of our opinions when you're threatening the web-forum owner with civil litigation and legal proceedings if he doesn't comply with your wishes to remove this thread and all associated content? Why are you so intent on censoring this community if according to you, have nothing to hide?
 
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Chris, I will tell you straight out. You are full of BS! I will pull the IP from the email under the false name of sammythebull1952 you sent me and if it matches yours the probability of that being a coincidence are astronomical ! I will post the IP tomorrow . what a clown!
 
This might just be the quickest decent into the Hall of Shame ever...oh yeah, we're going there soon.
 
I was taught a long time ago when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing is to stop digging. This thread would have died a long time ago if weren't for Mr. Williams' and Sammy the Bull's posts. This thread should be published in a textbook for a public relations class as an example of how not to manage a crisis. Why would the person you enlist to support you, whether real or imagined, pick a screen name that pays homage to a notorious hitman/stool pigeon. I know nothing about your knife makings skills, Mr. Williams, but your communication skills suck. If you had merely posted the last paragraph of your most recent post, more politely, 2 weeks ago, and said nothing else, this thread would be dead. Now the horse has come back to life and is going to get kicked hard and repeatedly. I am putting some popcorn in the microwave. This beats the heck out of Family Guy reruns on Hulu.
 
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