Reasons to join the ABS

[James_Terrio]

...I have NEVER smoked a cigarette, done any drugs, and drink maybe once every 3 years...

No problem, I got your share covered on all counts.

If one wants to join, then join. If ya don't want to, then don't...

Amen, brother.

Quick disclaimer: I'm not a member of ANY organization other than BladeForums, and I have yet to sell a knife I made. I make no claims as to my expertise or skills, and I certainly don't have the gawdawful bawls to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't do, or which crowd they should hang out with.

...kool-aide drinkers or people with axes to grind...

...I have ruffled my share of feathers...(they) listened to what I had to say despite the fact it refuted much of what had been embraced for so long.

(my apologies to Mr Cashen if I over-edited his comments to fit my diatribe...JT)

Doesn't matter what group he's talking about, I feel this distinction applies to almost anything in life. The truth is nearly always somewhere in the middle, not the extreme on either side. Fanatics have a disturbing tendency to destroy themselves and everything within blasting range, ya ever notice that?

Off the top of my hat, I gotta say that ABS members on this forum have been extremely helpful to me in my fledgling endeavors... even though I admit that I'm months or maybe years away from forging a blade; stock-removal is the technique that works for me and the knives I'm learning to build. Even so, I cannot think of one single instance where an ABS member (apprentice, JS or MS) has ever been anything but supportive to me and hundreds of others like me.

I confess freely that I know nothing of the "internal politics" that may or may not plague the ABS (or Knifemaker's Guild, for that matter) but I assure you all that neither organization has EVER contacted me and told me what to do or how to do it. Nor did anyone demand that I support their organization, send them money, take this test, jump through that hoop, etc. However, members of BOTH org's have kindly given me a HUGE amount of guidance, education and encouragement, at no cost or obligation, as have many talented makers who claim no affiliation whatsoever. I thank you all.

What the heck is my point? Not one ABS or KMG member has ever tried to browbeat me into joining their group or doing things "their" way. Not once. Ever.

However, I do occasionally hear from/read posts from folks who seem to have a hobby of bashing one or the other of these organizations. Their reasons are almost always unclear, though very strident. To me, that speaks volumes.

Please take my comments with a large grain of salt, as I am a lowly beginner in the knifemaking world. But I have walked around the block a few times in the cold, hard, punch-clock reality of blue-collar struggle, where your work either meets spec or you get fired. I have very little tolerance for bu!!sh!t. During my time on this planet I've found that generally, people who devote a lot of time to tearing down other people, are not worth spending too much time with. People who openly share their experience and knowledge, and encourage those who follow behind them, are usually worth a listen.

With all due respect to the many talented and knowledgeable folks who've posted to this thread, I will shut my yap now.

"20 years in front of printing presses and guitar amps... and people wonder why I say 'huh?' alot..."

JT -- formerly known as GibsonFan

 

[Tai Goo]

Please point out anybody who has railed against the ridiculous premise of bending a blade 90 degrees, while giving factual explanations as to why, more than I have (indeed I come close to actually having a axe to grind here).

I understand your "fix it from the inside" approach, just don't agree with it. First you have to submit to that nonsense etc.,.. to get in on the "inside". It's a contradictory act. Like I said, I don't think it's fixable, or that the ridicules traditions will ever go away. It's like swallowing a live goldfish as a silly initiation ritual to some kind of club. It has done more harm than good along with some of the other corner stones of the group like smith ranking. I see the ABS as a miserable failure in representing the forged blade. A few simple changes could fix it, but I'm afraid it’s already too late and that the damage may be irreparable.

I'm not trying to fix it, because I don't think it's fixable… just telling it the way I see it. Given time the ABS bubble will burst on it's own... and the sooner the better as far as I‘m concerned.

In all fairness though, some good has come out of it for some people. For them, that's great! I don’t think it’s all bad, but in the long run,... more bad than good for the vast majority of bladesmiths inside and outside… So, I say thumbs down for the ABS!

 

[Steven Kelly]

I have never been a club or organization kind of guy. Mainly because of exactly what is going on here. Every time the topic of an organization like the ABS or Guild or Bobby Joe's knife making fan club comes up, it spurns a week of bitching and complaining. I am a self taught maker in the basics. That is not because I am to proud or stubborn to let people help me. It is quite simply because, when I started out there was no one who would/could help me. Then one day I was sitting at a gun show trying to peddle some of my knives. I was approached by a guy who offered me some really good advice and invited me to spend some time at his shop. This was the first time anyone even offered good advice, let alone time for free!!
As it turns out he was an ABS Mastersmith. The help and advice kept coming from him. And as we got to be friends, he introduced me to other ABS members who offered their advice and time. All of which came freely without any strings attached. Never once was I pressured to join the ABS, nor was it implied that I would be treated differently if I did join. I finally did decide to join the ABS. I joined for my own reasons. I decided that I wanted to earn my JS/MS stamps. I wanted to do it for me and no one else but me.
Getting my J/S hasn't made me a better maker and Lord knows that it hasn't made me more money, but that was not my motivation..
Now, I try to give back some of the knowledge that was so freely given to me..
I Think that is the mainstay behind the ABS. It is a gathering place for like minded individuals to meet and share knowledge to advance ourselves as knife makers. The ability to advance as a group is much better than the ability to advance as an individual.
I know the ABS is not for everyone, nor is the Guild or any of the other organizations out there. But, just because a certain organization is not for you, doesn't mean you need to speak negatively about it. Because there is someone out there who IS better off because of it and/or it's members. I can make about a 3 page list of names who have made me a better knife maker. They are probably all members of one knife organization or another. Maybe you are better off by not being involved with any organization. Maybe the organization is better off by you not being a member of it too. That's just the Human Nature side to life.. I can only speak for myself and say that I am better off because of the friendships I have made through the knife making world. And, I am thankful for organizations like the ABS and Guild for helping to perpetuate those relationships..

Just My $.02

Steve

 

[Don Hanson III]

Tai, you asked earlier;

The only thing I want to drive at is,... if you are neutral, how do you do it?
Herein lies the key to true wisdom and mastery... effortless effort!

Your last post would/will piss off the Pro-ABS and delight the Anti-ABS

It doesn't bother me at all.......

I respect your views and your right to express them, and will not try to change them.....

 

[Ed Fowler]

Tai: There is an old ukulele for in a pawn shop, it is missing a couple of strings and has tortoiseshell finger nail shields on it. I understand that the shell is out of style. without all the strings do I still have to play 'tip toe through the tulips' ? Will I fail because some of my notes will be different and some missing?

I do have a Hawaiian shirt.

 

[Tai Goo]

I guess I should just say thanks for your tolerance of my views and allowing me to express myself publicly. I was sort of expecting a lynch mob,... but I'm relieved that there isn't any.

If I hurt any feelings or stepped on any toes, then I apologize. I’m sure we all see it a little different and come to it from our own perspectives. I certainly don't have all the answers or want the job of trying to fix things (or ruin them). If anything I said struck home, then that's O.K. too.

May the forge be with you!

 

[Phil Dwyer]

Hey, if I join the ukulele club maybe I can get some good curly koa. Around here that's where most of it ends up...cut into veneer like thinnesses for music instrument makers. It's almost as hard to find as properly engineered quenchants.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Quick disclaimer: I'm not a member of ANY organization other than BladeForums,

BladeForums isn't an organization. I've heard it called such in this thread at least two times. Not trying to be incendiary, just pointing out a fact!

 

[Phil Dwyer]

BladeForums isn't an organization. I've heard it called such in this thread at least two times. Not trying to be incendiary, just pointing out a fact!

I'm not sure how this is meant. Seems to me we're a group of people (ragtag although it may be) organized around a theme. Sure we don't have corporate status or bylaws or officers or vote, but it is a membership organization non-the-less. Search only works for its members. There are levels of membership from basic to platinum which we pay for or subscribe to. In fact there are 123,337 members at present. There are membership fund raising drives for system upkeep and improvements. Although we meet casually, even if out of phase in time and in cyberspace, we meet none the less. We comply with rules and have rule keepers. Sounds like an organization to me.

 

[Tai Goo]

From post #59:

Instead of attacking me, trying to shut me down or silence me, they gave me a platform!

Just because the ABS gave you a platform to preach “the gospel of metallurgy according to Cashen“, doesn’t necessarily make it any better than it was before. You are good with facts, but your interpretations, applications, conclusions and opinions based on the facts are really no better than the next guy's. You are good with the details but often miss the big picture, IMO. Are you trying to give your personal opinions and preferences the appearance of science?

I don’t see how white washing the ABS with pseudo metallurgy will really make it any better. It’ll just make it that much harder for the next "savior" to try and fix.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Sounds like an organization to me.

Only in the loosest use of the term, and certainly not one that truly applies to this discussion. What you're referencing is semantic and lacks the focus necessary to qualify as a simile in terms of the discussion of this thread. The ABS serves other functions and has other requirements that allow greater specificity, and classifying something as purposely general as a web forum dedicated to people with a common interest is an error.
None of this has anything to do with the topic, so I won't continue this, as I don't own a ukelele.

However, I do own a Hawaiian shirt. Mr. Fowler, does that make us an organization, do you thinK?

 

[SteelSlaver]

Hmmmm, just whos facts or opinions should they or anyone aspire too. Unless you are the first guy to pick up a piece of steel and start pounding and sharping it, you should probably listen to someone, unless you want to completely reinvent the wheel. Why is someones facts that are backed up with study, in depth testing, photos, microscopic evidence pseudo metallurgy? Why are not they better opinions than the opinions than those of someone who believes in edge packing and the like? What harm do these studies, tests and reasoned conclusions do over the conclusions of someone who does things by color and uses metals found in a scrap heap and bases his conclusions on a skating file and a chopped up 2x4? I don't get it. I have great respect for your abilities Tai and I also believe you know a great deal about knives and steel. I also believe you learned a lot by trail and error and your own testing. The true definition of Science is the study of what actually occurs when something is subject to different forces and exposures and the results of those forces and exposures. You Yourself have done this in the pursuit of your art. Therefore you are one of the scientist you detest. Why do you resent and rally against someone who has simply carried it to a point beyond what you have? I am sorry to say this, but for all the wonderful work you do and knowledge you have gained, these arguments do nothing positive for you or your image. Kevin has done a lot of posts on the whys and how tos of metal. What happens and and how to control it. You have done some interesting things and I loved the deal about the reticulated silver. My respect for you would grow faster if you would post more about stuff like that and if you would tell how you heat treat and get the most out of your steels. Jim

 

[Mark Williams]

This post is about the ABS, not about Tai or Kevin. Please keep it on track

 

[Matthew Gregory]

It’ll just make it that much harder for the next "savior" to fix.

Why are you so concerned about saving others from the false prophets you perceive? I admit, I try to do the same (as does everyone, I suspect, to some extent....) but you seem infatuated with playing the role of Holden Caulfield.

I assure you, Tai, my innocence is unsullied - you won't need to catch me in that field of rye!

 

[Matthew Gregory]

This post is about the ABS, not about Tai or Kevin. Please keep it on track

Sorry Mark... got this message after I posted. Please delete my post if you feel it's unnecessary.

 

[69_knives]

The ABS doesn't really care if I or anyone joinins or not.
I probably wouldn't be missed if I quit paying my dues

I work in AR and AP and one thing I can tell you is they DO care.

We do jobs of all sizes from several thousand dollars to twenty dollar minimum charges. If I said that the 20 and 40 dollar jobs didn't matter I'd be doing my employer a disservice as those jobs make up a significant portion of our income.

If I had that attitude about one 20 dollar job I may as well have the same attitude about the other thousand $20.00 jobs that we do in a year as well.

That said, I am cheap, and if the dues and requirements seemed inordinate or disproportionate for the percieved benefits, I probably wouldn't join.

From what I have read here, it seems very much like a franchise. You pay your dues and you get to use the logos. One thing to remember is that there are many small mom-and-pop burger joints that do very well for themselves by selling delicious burgers to hungry people and the only reason I set foot in a mcD's is to use the toilet.

 

[cdent]

This has me interested. If I become an ABS member, which one of their logos can I use?

Thanks much 69, Craig

 

[Don Hanson III]

69 knives, the ABS is a non profit org. There are probably a few members who care about the number of members. But the ABS as a whole is not actively recruiting members.

The ABS is only a group of knife makers. The core of the group make similar style knives and revolve around the school and hammer-ins. There are many different rings that radiate out from the core, with many different styles and originality. I fit somewhere in the outer rings, far from the core. I think Tai could fit somewhere in the outer orbit ...If he wanted to..

 

[Tai Goo]

I guess my point is that if the foundation and corner stones are shot, a paint job really isn't going to fix it, just make it temporarily look better on the outside. I guess it doesn’t really hurt anything, but it doesn't really address the problems either. You can always scrape the paint off and try to really fix it, if you want,... it's just that much more work.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I think the best reason for makers to join the ABS is the vast amount of knowledge that can be gained from the teaching that is done. For non- makers, it is the knowledge that can be gained from attending hammer-ins.

Another advantage for makers is that as you advance though the different levels of certification within the organization, they will be able to make a better living. Plain and simple, the makers can charge more for their knives and collectors will be willing to pay it. That doesn't mean that you can't gain the same level of respect within the collector community without being a part of the ABS, but the JS and MS stamps do seem to have a great deal of pull when it comes to collectors.