Sad day for me a ZT lover...

Framelocks/Linerlocks inherently get must get weaker over time as the frame is the locking mechanism itself which needs to be bent and stressed to lock and so wear comes with it leading it to be weaker.

The locking bar on an Axis is independent of the locking mechanism (the springs) which will wear but the bar should structural integrity remains intact.

Not saying a frame lock will crumble compared to something like Axis, just saying in theory (and cheapo knives), framelocks design must weekend by the stress used in design. Over some time, which could be just long as other mechanisms. Doh.

This is not true. The liners that the Axis bar brace against have been shown to warp before the blade or axis bar will break. In abuse tests this does happen, though I consider such tests as ridiculous as what the OP did. And yes, Omega springs can and do go out on brand new knives for seemingly no reason. I've never had this happen on my BM knives but it does happen. The omega springs are the weak link in the axis lock IMO. Everything is a trade off. There is no perfect lock, just like there is no perfect steel, or no perfect anything.
 
Late to the show, but I think it's hilarious. :thumbup:

later that day, he used his ford ranger to pull out a dodge.

[video=youtube;dw1xZxUssfs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw1xZxUssfs[/video]

This is the funniest thing I have seen in a while!
 
I think he's saying it's a fantasy situation because there is no need to ever baton a log that large with a folding knife, and batoning wood in general is not something that very often needs to be done anyway.
Not only that, but that log is way too large for the ZT to be able to properly baton, though I'm sure you could try and get through it with enough time.

And frankly, prying with a folding knife, especially one that in theory was designed for COMBAT or EDC, and not for outdoor use at all, is really not a good idea, and you should not be surprised that the tip broke at all. The 0620 is an Emerson design with the wave feature, made for fast deployment, and to be able to be used as a weapon if needed. It is not AT ALL designed to be used the way you have here. Not all knives will be built to handle the same things.

The tip on the Grip is much thicker, and 154CM is tougher in general the way BM heat treats it than the way that ZT does their Elmax. Elmax will hold it's edge much better, and is much more corrosion resistant, so that is generally the trade-off there.
Not only that, but BM generally makes their knives (it seems) with the idea that they have no idea what type of people will use them, so they make the geometry of their blades thicker in order to keep people from being able to break them easily. ZT designed the 0620 with more a performance concept I would think (though it's still not the best knife out there when it comes to just cutting performance).

And the reason the lock slipped so much is because of the steel lock insert. The interface allows for little to no wear throughout the life of the knife, and a very good lock provided it's USED AS INTENDED. Hammering on the blade is obviously not something that you should ever do with any framelock knife, and you should be glad that all that happened was that the lock slipped. It very easily could have permanently destroyed the lockbar as well, and if it had not had the steel insert, then you probably would have damaged the lock face too much for it to be able to even lock up again.

Simply put, you used your knife in a way that has no logical reason, and is not how it is ever intended to be used, and it broke. It sucks that it broke, but YOU broke it. It is not the knife's fault that you broke it.


Hard to say it better than this
 
How does he know such a thing. Got any evidence to back that up?

I have one big Ti framelock that holds about as well as a SAK, and I've busted a few linerlocks.
If you pay close attention to your lock travel it doesn't take long to realize that it changes fairly easily.

Framelocks are fundamentally problematic because the pivot point on the lock bar is so far away from the lock face, and the lock bar is off axis from the direction of pressure being applied, technically it's off axis in two directions since the lock face is rotating with the blade and the lock bar is fixed.
It works, but slipjoints worked for over a hundred years too.
It's easy to come up with something more mechanically sound than a framelock, but making something that's more convenient at the same time is the challenge that has yet to be overcome. Framelocks are great because they hold the blade open and are easy manipulate and easy to clean, that's why we use them.
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it an essential design concept of the frame/liner lock that the gripping hand will comfortably mesh with the lockbar thus securing the lock further?

I realize this is not an absolute fix, however some of the discussion here seems to be theorizing--based on holding the knife in some virtual vice without regard for the element of a hand being placed securely around the knife, even consciously applying lock pressure in some situations, during these uses.

I can't think of a use wherein some kind of grip pressure can't easily be applied to a lock bar, holding it in securely against the blade face, whilst engaged in action considered 'grueling.' Not absolute protection but certainly much better than some of the speculation occurring here.
 
The lock face and the mating surface of the blade on frame locks are made so that the lock gets tighter the harder you cut with them. Where's the problem?

I've never had a frame lock fold up on me, but I've had plenty of liner locks act like they weren't even there. You can't trust ANY lock 100%, and to "baton" wood with any folder is just foolishness. Use fixed blades for that stuff. If it ain't fixed, what is it?...
 
I have one big Ti framelock that holds about as well as a SAK, and I've busted a few linerlocks.
If you pay close attention to your lock travel it doesn't take long to realize that it changes fairly easily.

Framelocks are fundamentally problematic because the pivot point on the lock bar is so far away from the lock face, and the lock bar is off axis from the direction of pressure being applied, technically it's off axis in two directions since the lock face is rotating with the blade and the lock bar is fixed.
It works, but slipjoints worked for over a hundred years too.
It's easy to come up with something more mechanically sound than a framelock, but making something that's more convenient at the same time is the challenge that has yet to be overcome. Framelocks are great because they hold the blade open and are easy manipulate and easy to clean, that's why we use them.

You missed the point of my question. It was about batman so let's just say never mind. I have and have had many framelocks. None of them have exhibited what you have experienced. Either you are very unlucky or I am very lucky. Don't know which it is. I'll take my lot though :)
 
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Seen in the paper this morning: "Area man shocked to learn that his knife, marketed as "built like a tank," did not come with a 120mm gun."
 
You almost need video to tell how well a knife should have held up.
I mean, there are people who break fixed blade knives that are noted for being tough!

I've used my ZT 0550 for a certain amount of prying; when the top of the wood coffee table was coming unlaminated, I used it to pry the veneer layer off, and scrape all the glue as well.
I've used it to pry in wood while camping a few times also, when a certain amount of prying was required.
But I'm certain I could find someone to hand it to who would find a way to break it within minutes, and then have no idea why it broke. ;)

The 0550 can pry like a mofo! I've used mine for all kinds of dumb stuff and it barely leaves a scratch. I think it is zt' toughest folder. The 0620 on the other hand isn't meant for that, the delicate tip is why I haven't got one yet.
 
This is the funniest thing I have seen in a while!

^ That was pretty funny, Whitty! :D

And to think that the kid driving his Ranger actually thought, that flooring his truck in reverse with 30' of strap would actually work! :rolleyes:

Kind of reminds me of some of the stupid things that you see here. People posting pictures of the impractical tests that they subject their knives to; substituting their expensive knives for a no brainer correct tool, & then complain at how poorly built they are.

These type of attention staved people, remind me of Stuart: "LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!" :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvbFMGmImg
 
^ That was pretty funny, Whitty! :D

And to think that the kid driving his Ranger actually thought, that flooring his truck in reverse with 30' of strap would actually work! :rolleyes:

Kind of reminds me of some of the stupid things that you see here. People posting pictures of the impractical tests that they subject their knives to; substituting their expensive knives for a no brainer correct tool, & then complain at how poorly built they are.

These type of attention staved people, remind me of Stuart: "LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!" :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvbFMGmImg

Hey there, John! Long time no see my friend ;)

To be fair, the OP in this was mainly wondering why his $100 knife did these tasks better than his $200 knife, which I kind of understand from his perspective, given that he wasn't as well-versed with the way different locking mechanisms and steels work for different tasks.

He and I have been talking a little on the side and he's a nice guy who does seem to just want to find the right knife for him, so I can't really be mad at him or think he's done too much wrong here for that. Not to mention this guy is a little new to the knife hobby, and we all know we have done something stupid with our knives before. ;) :D

Don't get me wrong, I started thinking the same thing as you on this one, since we have seen this happen WAY too many times on this forum where someone was just complaining about their knife breaking from doing things a knife should never do, but I don't think this was so much of one of those cases.

That being said, unfortunately this case is kind of the exception to the rule...most of the time you're spot on my friend :D
 
Hey there, John! Long time no see my friend ;)

To be fair, the OP in this was mainly wondering why his $100 knife did these tasks better than his $200 knife, which I kind of understand from his perspective, given that he wasn't as well-versed with the way different locking mechanisms and steels work for different tasks.

He and I have been talking a little on the side and he's a nice guy who does seem to just want to find the right knife for him, so I can't really be mad at him or think he's done too much wrong here for that. Not to mention this guy is a little new to the knife hobby, and we all know we have done something stupid with our knives before. ;) :D

Don't get me wrong, I started thinking the same thing as you on this one, since we have seen this happen WAY too many times on this forum where someone was just complaining about their knife breaking from doing things a knife should never do, but I don't think this was so much of one of those cases.

That being said, unfortunately this case is kind of the exception to the rule...most of the time you're spot on my friend :D

Hey Charr! Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion (which I always highly respect btw). I can see how my comment could be interpreted as being directed towards the OP (the fact that it's posted in HIS thread). My comment was NOT intended to be directed at him specifically, rather, at the past 3 years of complete asinine tests I've seen, posted here. This is why I thoughtfully chose the word: "people!"

As you know, I rarely post in this sub-forum. I typically read, observe & try to learn from this place. Occasionally I try to have a little fun. This is my last month here. If I remember correctly, my membership expires towards the end of June. On that date, I'll log out one last time, & I will not be coming back. It's nothing against this place, to the contrary, I need to start focusing my valuable time/energy, into other areas of my life.

It's been an awesome ride here...& I just want to have a little fun riding off into the sunset...

Stuart "Look what I can do," at least gave ME a good laugh! ;)

To the OP: I sincerely apologize for my last post (if you happen to feel that it was directed towards you). It wasn't! I've just seen way too many people here, destroy, otherwise good quality knives...& usually it's been for ONE reason:

ATTENTION!
 
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Seen in the paper this morning: "Area man shocked to learn that his knife, marketed as "built like a tank," did not come with a 120mm gun."

I see I'm not the only one that goes to TheOnion for my daily news. ;) Maybe they have an article somewhere that would end the debate about batoning with a folder. :D
 
Interesting thread...I wish I had seen it earlier when folks were talking more about the steel, in this case Elmax. A few folks corrected the early comments stating that Elmax was the reason for the knife's performance issues. While I would never use a folder the way the OP did here...heck, I'd never use a folder for anything - but that's just me - Elmax is one of the very best steels you could ask for in any knife, & yes, it is one of the toughest stainless steels out there, which is why that new knife (forget the company name/knife name) was just developed for the SEALs & other special operators, & I suppose not so special operators too, so that they could have a stainless knife that could survive prying & other rigors of special operations.

Now, this all assumes an appropriate HT & blade/knife design & geometries & all of the other buzz words that us knife nuts love so bad. I can't add anything to the framelock discussion...I have no clue about stuff like that, I stay in my fixed blade lane, but it's fun to read these comments & learn about all of this folder related stuff.
 
Hey Charr! Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion (which I always highly respect btw). I can see how my comment could be interpreted as being directed towards the OP (the fact that it's posted in HIS thread). My comment was NOT intended to be directed at him specifically, rather, at the past 3 years of complete asinine tests I've seen, posted here. This is why I thoughtfully chose the word: "people!"

As you know, I rarely post in this sub-forum. I typically read, observe & try to learn from this place. Occasionally I try to have a little fun. This is my last month here. If I remember correctly, my membership expires towards the end of June. On that date, I'll log out one last time, & I will not be coming back. It's nothing against this place, to the contrary, I need to start focusing my valuable time/energy, into other areas of my life.

It's been an awesome ride here...& I just want to have a little fun riding off into the sunset...

Stuart "Look what I can do," at least gave ME a good laugh! ;)

To the OP: I sincerely apologize for my last post (if you happen to feel that it was directed towards you). It wasn't! I've just seen way too many people here, destroy, otherwise good quality knives...& usually it's been for ONE reason:

ATTENTION!

Sucks to hear you won't be around here anymore my friend, but I also get what you're saying. This forum can eat up your life if you let it :D
I kind of go in spurts. A couple of weeks will go by where I just read and look, and then something will catch my eye that I have to post on and that usually leads to about 100 posts in the span a few days :D

And I do get what you mean. Thankfully this thread was not just another "look over here at me" but there have been WAY too many that were just to get attention and just complaining for no real reason when they destroyed their own PROPERY by being stupid...
 
Hey Charr! Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion (which I always highly respect btw). I can see how my comment could be interpreted as being directed towards the OP (the fact that it's posted in HIS thread). My comment was NOT intended to be directed at him specifically, rather, at the past 3 years of complete asinine tests I've seen, posted here. This is why I thoughtfully chose the word: "people!"

As you know, I rarely post in this sub-forum. I typically read, observe & try to learn from this place. Occasionally I try to have a little fun. This is my last month here. If I remember correctly, my membership expires towards the end of June. On that date, I'll log out one last time, & I will not be coming back. It's nothing against this place, to the contrary, I need to start focusing my valuable time/energy, into other areas of my life.

It's been an awesome ride here...& I just want to have a little fun riding off into the sunset...

Stuart "Look what I can do," at least gave ME a good laugh! ;)

To the OP: I sincerely apologize for my last post (if you happen to feel that it was directed towards you). It wasn't! I've just seen way too many people here, destroy, otherwise good quality knives...& usually it's been for ONE reason:

ATTENTION!

Kelama, we've never communicated on BF but I'm very familiar with your posts. You will be missed. My best wishes to you as you focus on other areas & interests.
 
Marketability/gullibility

Exactly.

ZT's are the king of marketing knives(for lack of a better term) imo. They have all the latest fad "super steels" and materials and offer designs from popular designers. They have great marketing phrases like "Built like a tank", "Proudly overbuilt", "A real beast", exc. and make it sound like they are the knife every MIL, LEO, secret agent should and does use. They have nice fit and finish. But really, they are nothing special. They dont have the greatest lock geometry, blade geometry, engineering, heat treatment, and are not even very tough. They do sell well though, look real nice, and will cut things. Their marketing team deserves a pat on the back, they are right up there with Apple's.
 
Exactly.

ZT's are the king of marketing knives(for lack of a better term) imo. They have all the latest fad "super steels" and materials and offer designs from popular designers. They have great marketing phrases like "Built like a tank", "Proudly overbuilt", "A real beast", exc. and make it sound like they are the knife every MIL, LEO, secret agent should and does use. They have nice fit and finish. But really, they are nothing special. They dont have the greatest lock geometry, blade geometry, engineering, heat treatment, and are not even very tough. They do sell well though, look real nice, and will cut things. Their marketing team deserves a pat on the back, they are right up there with Apple's.

Lol. So you have owned several ZTs and they all broke right? I love how everyone on this forum is a knife designer/engineer. You do understand that most of ZT's knives are collaborations so essentially you are calling every knife maker who has done a design for them incompetent right?
 
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Framelocks are finicky at best, they wear extremely quickly and if you want one to last it should never be subjected to stress intentionally.
Every time you apply shock or heavy pressure to a framelock it wears out a little more. That does apply to most other locks too, but the framelock (and linerlock) design is inherently much less stable than something like the Axis lock.
The reason manufacturers put framelocks on "hard use" knives is because the average customer values aesthetics and convenience over security. All your beefy framelock knives are like a cosplay version of Batman. Good for looks, nice to play with on the couch, but they will quickly fall apart under stress.

Yes, framelocks can be made strong, but then they're hard to unlock. In this design convenience and reliability are directly opposed, and people complain bitterly when convenience is compromised, so knifemakers give people what they want, aesthetically pleasing weak locks.
Simply put "framelocks sell", even if for all the wrong reasons.

(Edited for paragraphs)


That is my general impression of them as well, framelocks in particular. What makes it worse are the attempts to overbuild them, which increases rigidity: Flimsy liners will actually not wear the contact surfaces as much as the more rigid framelocks, because they have thin flexible bars that relieve impact wear on the locking surfaces.

Also what is overlooked is that a narrower stock, "flimsier" liner lock generates a more "biting" friction on the contact surface, just from being a narrower, flimsier piece made of harder materials: This combines two things: Less slippage from the narrowness of contact (especially if the end is roughly finished), and less concentration of force from the overall flexing: Flimsier bars take the slippage tendency away from the locking surface, by bending, which is exactly what framelocks don't do: They concentrate the effort on the locking surfaces, hence more wear/slippage...

Framelocks are also much more rigid on impact, so all the forces again get concentrated on the locking surfaces.

This was brought home to me when Cold Steel tested the Sebenza, and it failed the handle weight test at around forty pounds (which I pointed out was about the weight of the DA trigger of a Walther PPK, or at least the CZ 50 I used to have)... There was a bit of an issue of measuring the distance from the pivot to the weight attachment, if I recall... I don't have the greatest confidence in Cold Steel tests... But generally it was acknowledged the frame lock design was far from the greatest for strength, reliability, and that failing the spine wack test was common... I found this surprising.

The better argument in favour of frame locks is that with the hand holding it tightly it will hold up better: This may be true, but it does not inspire great confidence...: I think framelocks and even liner locks would be better suited to slim folders that do not project an image of great "strength": In the case of many overbuilt framelocks, there is a great discrepancy between the knife's appearance and its actual ability, which is an invitation to an accident.

As far a spine wacking being a useless demonstration, I only remembered later an incident where my Cold Steel Pro-Lite really saved a trip: My bike chain had jumped off the gear wheel and wedged itself between the frame and gear assembly: It had been wedged there by the force of my full force pedalling being abruptly stopped, so you can imagine the energy...

Because of the narrow space, the only tool I had that could reach in there, and tap the chain free, was my Pro-Lite's spine...: A somewhat beefy liner lock folder, with a curious "double hump" bowie blade and a very functional oval opening hole (which I liked better than a round hole), probably one of the best liner lock folders of the time (around 2000): I proceeded to spine wack it about a hundred times to free the chain, spinning it full force by the tip of the handle: Finally, after all that tapping, the chain came free and the trip, hundreds of miles from home, was saved... (Otherwise the bike's rear wheel would not even turn, so I could not even push it besides me as I walked: It would have had to be carried: That meant abandoning it...)

Not my actual knife:

18500C90F7264F9A7ED52A4F9A7D4D.jpg


A pretty beefy lock at the interface, but elsewhere the liners are thin throughout, so again not the rigid bar/faraway flex point of a framelock:

14500C92371E4F9A801A1D4F9A7E8D.jpg


I would say generally, because of this built-in flexibility issue, that thin-bar liner locks are probably better in reliability than framelocks, which is the opposite of the impression they make... I still do not like that, on linerlocks, the all-or-nothing ball detent "step" is the only real safety feature keeping the knife closed: After decades of carry, an oddball incident will eventually jar it open... Lockbacks keep a continuing closing pressure, which is the big reason to choose them.

I have to say that, as I wacked the Pro-Lite's spine a hundred times as hard as I could, it never occurred to me that a linerlock, or a lockback for that matter, could slip... This being around 2000, I had fifteen years to wait to first hear of the spine wack test, and of failures doing this... I do however remember in the 90s hearing about liner locks opening in the pocket, and of this being considered a common issue...

Gaston
 
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