Recommendation? Situation

[Bill Siegle]

Horrible situation for sure. I’d advise anyone reading this thread, if you’re dealing with a return record the box and opening as received. I know we all want to open boxes as fast as we can but a little video goes a long way.

 

[ooitzoo]

A ? Going through my head
Exactly why is the seller responsible to pay off in this situation. When he sells, it is his responsability to pack well, insure and get the knife to the buyer. One main reason is he controls the shipping decisions. Dosen't the buyer have the same responsability on the return.
Not to say they can't settle any way they choice, but something I was wondering about.

Because the trade isn't complete until both sides agree
In this instance, the tool (or whatever) is in the box doesn't seem to be either BS by OP or an intentional scam by the buyer
In any case, the seller has to make good to the buyer. The wrinkle here is the insurance claim by the buyer (and to credit the seller the corresponding amount)

Horrible situation for sure. I’d advise anyone reading this thread, if you’re dealing with a return record the box and opening as received. I know we all want to open boxes as fast as we can but a little video goes a long way.

That's not a panacea. For one thing, a vid of the opening would be crazy easy to manipulate. I think trading/buying/selling on here is entirely dependent on trust. That is, trust that each side will perform against their commitments but also trust that, if not, you can and will find yourself in deep kaka.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

Because the trade isn't complete until both sides agree
In this instance, the tool (or whatever) is in the box doesn't seem to be either BS by OP or an intentional scam by the buyer
In any case, the seller has to make good to the buyer. The wrinkle here is the insurance claim by the buyer (and to credit the seller the corresponding amount)

That explains his right to return, but not the responsability to get it back to the seller.
As it is the seller is eating the $ and the knife on the IMO stolen item the buyer sent back, maybe(i don't know) not packaged as well as it could be, and not fully insured( insurance may or not pay), but the loss is not due to anything the seller did.
And maybe not anything the buyer did, but the seller is asked to eat it all.
The ? Is just that, and not a reflection of how I would settle it, or any objection to how the seller has chosen to settle. He seem to be handling it well, after a bit of a rough start

 

[bax229]

You don't need the original receipt. At least you didn't the last time I had to file a claim (about 3-4 years ago). You can simply use the website for a similar item for sale (e.g., BladeHQ or Ebay).

Seems like a lot of room for fraud. Do you value the knife at the Arcform seconds price of $150 or the BF sale price of $195? According to the receipt, insurance is only good for up to $100 anyway.

Curious, how long did it take for you to get reimbursed?

 

[Corbi43]

Then I think the only thing left to do is file a USPS case
Once filed, provided it's paid out, Corbi43 owes @arvinn his purchase price less the $$ paid by USPS insurance
Either way, Corbi43 owes you the purchase price



This is conjecture and really isn't fair. Not knowing would have been the worst answer here since you'd be in the same spot as Corbi43

This is a really S@!t situation IMHO
I'm sorry you folks are going thru this
Neither party seems to have outright ripped off the other and I doubt @arvinn is going to put his rep at risk for ~$300

Yea I said I’d pay the difference. Don’t have a problem with that. I shipped the knife, he got it. Didn’t want it told him id refund him and the knife didn’t get to me me. How? Apparently that’s a mystery.

Because the trade isn't complete until both sides agree
In this instance, the tool (or whatever) is in the box doesn't seem to be either BS by OP or an intentional scam by the buyer
In any case, the seller has to make good to the buyer. The wrinkle here is the insurance claim by the buyer (and to credit the seller the corresponding amount)

That's not a panacea. For one thing, a vid of the opening would be crazy easy to manipulate. I think trading/buying/selling on here is entirely dependent on trust. That is, trust that each side will perform against their commitments but also trust that, if not, you can and will find yourself in deep kaka.

Its the fact that I don’t have the product I was originally sent. I technically already fulfilled my side. Even though unknowingly sending a seconds knife. It was sent and delivered. How is it my priority when the product is sent back? If it was tampered with in transit then what? I send him the difference of insurance and still be out of pocket for the knife?

 

[Corbi43]

Seems like a lot of room for fraud. Do you value the knife at the Arcform seconds price of $150 or the BF sale price of $195? According to the receipt, insurance is only good for up to $100 anyway.

Curious, how long did it take for you to get reimbursed?

I bought it off the secondary market for 195. The person I bought it from didn’t state it was a seconds. I posted it here for what I bought it for. He offered 160 and that’s what it sold for.

To note I didn’t pay attention to the box when I received it. I flipped it once didn’t like it, put it up got it out for a picture to sell. I didn’t know it was a seconds until the buyer said something.

 

[ooitzoo]

That explains his right to return, but not the responsability to get it back to the seller.
As it is the seller is eating the $ and the knife on the IMO stolen item the buyer sent back, maybe(i don't know) not packaged as well as it could be, and not fully insured( insurance may or not pay), but the loss is not due to anything the seller did.
And maybe not anything the buyer did, but the seller is asked to eat it all.
The ? Is just that, and not a reflection of how I would settle it, or any objection to how the seller has chosen to settle. He seem to be handling it well, after a bit of a rough start

If the parties agreed that the buyer sent back a random tool instead of the knife then I'd agree that he owes the seller either the $$ or the knife. However, that hasn't been established. From what I read, there is nothing to suggest the knife wasn't well packaged. Rather, the issue is that a random tool was sent back. Now it comes down to whom is more credible. To me, neither party seems to be obviously defrauding anyone and both are proactive in working toward a resolution.

So what are the available remedies? In general, it's the sellers responsibility to get the goods into the hands of the buyer as described. That didn't happen here. Hence, he owes the buyer the $.

With all of that said, nothing prevents the parties to agreeing to split the difference or some other arrangement. Failing that, the above stands IMHO.

Seems like a lot of room for fraud. Do you value the knife at the Arcform seconds price of $150 or the BF sale price of $195? According to the receipt, insurance is only good for up to $100 anyway.

Curious, how long did it take for you to get reimbursed?

Defrauding USPS for $195 is meth-level stupid. For one thing, it's a felony (you outright have to sign something that says as much). For another, is the $100 REALLY worth that much to you.

In my case, I used a pair (maybe three) comparable sales from eBay and some random knife sites. I didn't have a receipt because it was a pass-around that got lost. They accepted the various comparable sales and used the lowest # for the claim (as you would expect).

All in, I think it took 2-3 weeks but I can dig up the GBU thread to confirm if you're interested.

Yea I said I’d pay the difference. Don’t have a problem with that. I shipped the knife, he got it. Didn’t want it told him id refund him and the knife didn’t get to me me. How? Apparently that’s a mystery.

Its the fact that I don’t have the product I was originally sent. I technically already fulfilled my side. Even though unknowingly sending a seconds knife. It was sent and delivered. How is it my priority when the product is sent back? If it was tampered with in transit then what? I send him the difference of insurance and still be out of pocket for the knife?

I appreciate that you're working to resolve this and taking the loss on the chin. That takes character. Well done sir. At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I want to be clear that this is genuine praise.

With that said, you did not fulfill your end of the transaction (technically or otherwise). Fulfilling your end would be getting the knife to the buyer in the condition stated. That didn't happen here. The knife was a 2nd. Whether you knew or didn't (and I do believe you) isn't relevant. No more so then if you had sold a fake Rolex unknowingly. The buyer bought a non-2nd knife. He didn't get it.

You could have insisted his insure the knife for the full value upon return. You could argue that it was his responsibility to do so. But neither of those things have happened. I do somewhat agree with the spirit of your point here. You didn't control the means of shipping the knife back to you so the buyer has some culpability. How much that's worth IDK.

I bought it off the secondary market for 195. The person I bought it from didn’t state it was a seconds. I posted it here for what I bought it for. He offered 160 and that’s what it sold for.

Maybe contact the person who sold it to you and see what can be done. Do you have the thread handy?

 

[Corbi43]

If the parties agreed that the buyer sent back a random tool instead of the knife then I'd agree that he owes the seller either the $$ or the knife. However, that hasn't been established. From what I read, there is nothing to suggest the knife wasn't well packaged. Rather, the issue is that a random tool was sent back. Now it comes down to whom is more credible. To me, neither party seems to be obviously defrauding anyone and both are proactive in working toward a resolution.

So what are the available remedies? In general, it's the sellers responsibility to get the goods into the hands of the buyer as described. That didn't happen here. Hence, he owes the buyer the $.

With all of that said, nothing prevents the parties to agreeing to split the difference or some other arrangement. Failing that, the above stands IMHO.

Defrauding USPS for $195 is meth-level stupid. For one thing, it's a felony (you outright have to sign something that says as much). For another, is the $100 REALLY worth that much to you.

In my case, I used a pair (maybe three) comparable sales from eBay and some random knife sites. I didn't have a receipt because it was a pass-around that got lost. They accepted the various comparable sales and used the lowest # for the claim (as you would expect).

All in, I think it took 2-3 weeks but I can dig up the GBU thread to confirm if you're interested.

I appreciate that you're working to resolve this and taking the loss on the chin. That takes character. Well done sir. At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I want to be clear that this is genuine praise.

With that said, you did not fulfill your end of the transaction (technically or otherwise). Fulfilling your end would be getting the knife to the buyer in the condition stated. That didn't happen here. The knife was a 2nd. Whether you knew or didn't (and I do believe you) isn't relevant. No more so then if you had sold a fake Rolex unknowingly. The buyer bought a non-2nd knife. He didn't get it.

You could have insisted his insure the knife for the full value upon return. You could argue that it was his responsibility to do so. But neither of those things have happened. I do somewhat agree with the spirit of your point here. You didn't control the means of shipping the knife back to you so the buyer has some culpability. How much that's worth IDK.

Maybe contact the person who sold it to you and see what can be done. Do you have the thread handy?

I understand your perspective and i appreciate your response. But I do believe my part was technically fulfilled, even though the knife was a seconds it was in literally new condition’s . The buyer even said if the sticker wasn’t on there he wouldn’t have even have known. He didn’t like it so I offered a refund. I didn’t package the box and I didn’t send it off. The buyer may have bought a seconds knife unknowingly but I also have no knife returned. Just because the buyer wanted a refund doesn’t mean they don’t have liability to return the product. It’s like “Well it looks like they made an attempt to return the product, you should refund them” or “just refund the buyer and eat the loss” no.

 

[Goose 7279]

That's a tough situation I feel for the seller because he shipped the knife and the buyer recieved said knife. Then the seller never recieves his knife back and loses the knife or 160 that's tough.

I had the same thing happen with someone sending me a crap knife in place of a 300 dollar blade.

This practice is not new I have heard of people sending rocks etc. in place of what was suppose to be in package.

Sorry to both parties

 

[ooitzoo]

I understand your perspective and i appreciate your response. But I do believe my part was technically fulfilled, even though the knife was a seconds it was in literally new condition’s . The buyer even said if the sticker wasn’t on there he wouldn’t have even have known. He didn’t like it so I offered a refund. I didn’t package the box and I didn’t send it off. The buyer may have bought a seconds knife unknowingly but I also have no knife returned. Just because the buyer wanted a refund doesn’t mean they don’t have liability to return the product. It’s like “Well it looks like they made an attempt to return the product, you should refund them” or “just refund the buyer and eat the loss” no.

The knife being a 2nd means that you didn't fulfill anything. Literally nothing. Again, fauxlex vs genuine Rolex. You don't need to intend to rip someone off for your end to be incomplete. Whether its an obvious 2nd (or fake) to either party doesn't change the fact that the item sent wasn't the item described. To be clear, it's your responsibility to know the EXACT condition of the knife and it's "provenance" (for lack of a better word).

You haven't demonstrated that the buyer didn't return your product. If the box arrived torn to shreds and empty, I'd be more sympathetic but that's not the case here. Rather, you're claiming the buyer sent you a random tool rather then the knife in question. He claims he sent the knife. As an outsider with no dog in the fight, how do you suppose we arrive at the correct factset here? In short, we can't. It's your word against his. To be clear, no one is claiming "an attempt was made". One side (you) says "he sent me a random item that isn't my knife" while the other says "I shipped the knife".

You're not eating the entire loss. You're eating about $60. I totally appreciate that that sucks. Believe me, I've been there for a far larger sum and it's not a good experience. But, you're still on the hook because you never completed the sale.

That's a tough situation I feel for the seller because he shipped the knife and the buyer recieved said knife. Then the seller never recieves his knife back and loses the knife plus 160 that's tough.

I had the same thing happen with someone sending me a crap knife in place of a 300 dollar blade.

This practice is not new I have heard of people sending rocks etc. in place of what was suppose to be in package.

Sorry to both parties

He's not losing the knife plus $160.
He's losing $60 flat.
He sold a knife for $160. Got the $ and sent the knife. The buyer returned the knife (or tool depending on whom you believe) but it wasn't in the box. Now the buyer is filing a USPS insurance claim for $100. Hence, seller owes buyer $60 provided all parties perform to complete the USPS claim and USPS pays out.

 

[karnaknives]

I hate to point out the obvious, and maybe this has already been said, but we don’t know if the seller put that tool in the box after getting his knife back.
The fact that one party has a lot of positive feedback and one doesn’t may also be part of the equation.
Just saying.

And Happy New Year.

 

[KELAMA]

I bought it off the secondary market for 195. The person I bought it from didn’t state it was a seconds.

To note I didn’t pay attention to the box when I received it. I didn’t know it was a seconds until the buyer said something.

^ IMO- This situation is 100% you're own doing. For if it weren't for, your negligence (misrepresenting this knife YOU listed/sold), the subsequent chain of events never would've occurred. I'm just glad that I wasn't this buyer, because I wouldn't be very happy/appreciate being involved in this fubar situation he now finds himself mired in! Talk about a Happy F-ing New Year......

Bottom line: You sold this knife to an unsuspecting buyer which was clearly a "FACTORY SECONDS (regardless of the price/condition you claim it to be). YOU, misrepresented said knife not declaring it as such. It's the seller's responsibility, to know exactly what he/she is selling (condition) and be 100% accurate in it's description.

FWIW: I also give a lot more credibility to this buyer (he didn't misrepresent anything/has a Feedback rating of 151 100% positive score), vs. a seller who just joined here 2 months ago, and is now seemingly failing, to accept full responsibility for his actions.

As for the USPS Insurance claim- Good luck with that, because that journey will be a long fruitless endeavor......

 

[ooitzoo]

TBH, USPS was very reasonable when I filed a claim. To be fair, the claim was fundamentally different then the situation here (the knife literally just stopped moving thru the system and they couldn't locate it) but I think it reasonable that USPS will provide an answer one way or the other within a few weeks. I agree that the facts here could give rise to USPS either asking more questions or outright turning the claim down.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

The knife being a 2nd means that you didn't fulfill anything. Literally nothing. Again, fauxlex vs genuine Rolex. You don't need to intend to rip someone off for your end to be incomplete. Whether its an obvious 2nd (or fake) to either party doesn't change the fact that the item sent wasn't the item described. To be clear, it's your responsibility to know the EXACT condition of the knife and it's "provenance" (for lack of a better word).

You haven't demonstrated that the buyer didn't return your product. If the box arrived torn to shreds and empty, I'd be more sympathetic but that's not the case here. Rather, you're claiming the buyer sent you a random tool rather then the knife in question. He claims he sent the knife. As an outsider with no dog in the fight, how do you suppose we arrive at the correct factset here? In short, we can't. It's your word against his. To be clear, no one is claiming "an attempt was made". One side (you) says "he sent me a random item that isn't my knife" while the other says "I shipped the

To me this is why I doubt USPS will pay on the claim. They delivered a package and they have no idea what was in it or that an employee stole the item. To them buyer could be have sent a. Tool. Seller could have recieved a knife and claiming he didn't, or they both could be in it together. There is no way to proove it was stolen in transit , and they aren't easy to get money out of in the best of situations.
You have said you have made claims , but were they under these circumstances, or non delivered items ?
See you answered the last part while I was writting

 

[ooitzoo]

To me this is why I doubt USPS will pay on the claim. They delivered a package and they have no idea what was in it or that an employee stole the item. To them buyer could be have sent a. Tool. Seller could have recieved a knife and claiming he didn't, or they both could be in it together. There is no way to proove it was stolen in transit , and they aren't easy to get money out of in the best of situations.
You have said you have made claims , but werethey under these circumstances, or non delivered items ?

I agree with most of this except that I think it worthwhile to make a claim. For one thing, the sides here will both have to sign an affidavit (under threat of perjury and criminal action) that their stories are accurate. It's a good litmus test IMHO.

In my case, the circumstances were different. A passaround knife simply stopped progressing thru tracking. After contacting USPS and giving them a few weeks to track it down they gave up and told me to file a claim. Once filed, I got the $$ within maybe 2-3 weeks.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

I agree with most of this except that I think it worthwhile to make a claim. For one thing, the sides here will both have to sign an affidavit (under threat of perjury and criminal action) that their stories are accurate. It's a good litmus test IMHO.

In my case, the circumstances were different. A passaround knife simply stopped progressing thru tracking. After contacting USPS and giving them a few weeks to track it down they gave up and told me to file a claim. Once filed, I got the $$ within maybe 2-3 weeks.

I think it is important to at least notify USPS of the problem, and they might as well do it by a claim
I could be wrong about the pay out. I have been wrong once or twice before

 

[jacobconroy75]

Sounds like a tough situation, but personally, I wouldn't endure an uncomfortable situation for $160.

Have you two considered splitting the difference and walking away clean?

 

[KELAMA]

TBH, USPS was very reasonable when I filed a claim. To be fair, the claim was fundamentally different then the situation here (the knife literally just stopped moving thru the system and they couldn't locate it) but I think it reasonable that USPS will provide an answer one way or the other within a few weeks. I agree that the facts here could give rise to USPS either asking more questions or outright turning the claim down.

I'm actually going by all the horror stories I've read here (attempting to collect on a lost item claim), not from personal experience.

On a positive note: I've done over a thousand gun/knife transactions as both a buyer/seller, the USPS via shipping has been my go to in probably 98%+ of all those transactions, and I've never had an item turn up lost.

 

[karnaknives]

I've done over a thousand gun/knife transactions as both a buyer/seller, the USPS via shipping has been my go to in probably 98%+ of all those transactions, and I've never had an item turn up lost.

I've done several hundred or a thousand or more online sales, most shipped USPS, and NONE ever left as one item, and arrived as another item.

 

[ooitzoo]

I've done several hundred or a thousand or more online sales, most shipped USPS, and NONE ever left as one item, and arrived as another item.

I think this pretty much captures the crux of the issue