Sneak peak at the new Arc Lite :)

Tommi from Puukkoland said-

"If this Arc Lite it is light - as adverised - it is too thin to be comfortable.

I could still buy one as some chores are so short that don't need comfortable knife -just one that is around. In those chores edge holding is not an issue."

But lightness,corrosion resitance,flatness, and convenience is--Hey Tommi-You just figured out what a neck knife is for!! Good Job......
wink.gif


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"The most effective armor is to keep out of range"-Italian proverb
 
BTW
Ill have a few titanium arc lites in NY with non mag sheaths ... Yes im trying all kinds of new ideas (at least for me)


------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
 
I want one. Sign me up and send it when you can!

Darrel, it looks great and will fit many needs. Thanks for all the work needed to get a good design on the market.

Will, Good job getting it to us for $20.!!!

Thanks, CAL

[This message has been edited by CAL (edited 11-08-2000).]
 
Anthony Lombardo:

have you ever tried to carry a Frosts Puukko around your neck?
Click to expand...

I am wearing a similar sized blade now to the Frosts I had. It also has one of the most ergonomic and secure handles out of all the blades I own.

the 12C27 used in a Mora, Frosts, Kellam puukko is no better, or worse than 420 HC
Click to expand...

They are available in forged and laminated carbon steels.

some chores are so short that don't need comfortable knife -just one that is around. In those chores edge holding is not an issue
Click to expand...

It is hardly the case that neck knives need to be poor in regards to grip comfort or have a lower standard in regards to cutting performance. You can of course accept such a standard, but it is no means universal. I would be curious to see the reaction if this was the way it was promoted.

The steels weakness, 420HC, by the way also effects the functional durability limits by causing the edge to be thicker than a stronger steel so it cuts at a much lower level, there is more to it than just edge holding.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 11-08-2000).]
 
Cliff,

I have a saying here at WOW. "Do not bring me a problem without a possible solution."

Now with that in mind here is question.

You are a manufacturer who is coming out with a neck knife like the "Arc Lite" with a Kydex sheath and all the specs as noted. You main problem is the steel chosen. What steel would you use at that price point that is readily available, blankable through a die stamp and offers a good bang for the buck?

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Mike Turber
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Cliff,

Camillus is making a knife that is geared towards the big picture-the mass market.

Carbon steel would be inappropriate in my opinion for a neck knife. Thousands of rusty neck knives hanging around sweaty necks isnt a pretty picture. Can you say warranty?

Additionally, neck knives are commonly used by fly fishermen, river rafters, and others who play around water alot.

I know all about the Puukkos with laminated and carbon blades. I have a very nice carbon one myself. However, re-read argument #1 against carbon for a neck knife.

Besides, if you want to carry a round, thick plastic handled-knife around your neck, be my guest. Let me know how the custom kydex works out.

420 HC has some great characteristics for this knife. One, it will not rust under normal cicumstances,and in the part of the hot, humid world where I live, that is a godsend.

It holds a decent edge comparable to AUS6 or 12C27. It wont win any prizes, But for $20 dollars US what do you want? Perfection? Add scales, and a steel that requires a laser to cut(154CM, CPM, etc.) it and you are looking at a $80-100 retail neck knife. What would the average joe on the street want? Case closed.

Hey Cliff are you ging to buy an ArcLite and test it? I cant wait for your review.....

On second thought, I think I have already seen it.


------------------
"The most effective armor is to keep out of range"-Italian proverb
 
It is hardly the case that neck knives need to be poor in regards to grip comfort or have a lower standard in regards to cutting performance. You can of course accept such a standard, but it is no means universal. I would be curious to see the reaction if this was the way it was promoted.

The steels weakness, 420HC, by the way also effects the functional durability limits by causing the edge to be thicker than a stronger steel so it cuts at a much lower level, there is more to it than just edge holding.

-Cliff

Oh, 2 more points Cliff.
Does the cheap 12C27 require most Puukko makers to put thick edges on their knives?

Why are you assuming the ArcLite has a thick edge?

Have you laid calipers on one? The edge is spec'ed at .020 thats the first question I asked Darrel. That is thinner than a comparable Benchmade or Spyderco folder.

Again, handle molds, scales, wrapping are all extra expenses and aren't necessary at this level.

The design allows easy wrapping to be performed by the user if they want.

The reason I have been so vehement in support for this product is that I cannot stand armchair reviews, especially negative ones. Without the knife in your hand, how dare you make comments on its performance and ergonomics.

I am sure Cliff, that you will have a fancy Scientific term to rationalize your suggestions and observations.

I work in the life-science field. If I compared one of my products to the competition without a legitimate head-to-head test, I would be criticized and laughed out of the room, and thats what we are doing to you , Cliff.

 
The one I have is made out of 420V-S90V. If you want one with better steel I am sure Mr. DDR can and will make you one. Don't think you will get it for $20 however.
 
The handmade Arc Lite has been my regular companion at work for a couple of months now. The handle on mine has the G-10 scales, as I don't like bare steel handles.

I would make two points about the handle. It works really well for its intended mission, and no, it isn't particularly comfortable for hard cutting. But then, it is a little 3" neck knife (Darrel: is the Camillus version larger than the handmade - 3.25"?) with a three finger handle, and it isn't intended for hard cutting, at least not a lot of hard cutting. As an example, take .5" rope. The Arc Lite will cut through it, but the small handle makes it a little awkward and uncomfortable. The blade cuts fine, you just don't have a lot of leverage. But that's OK. If you are going to be cutting rope all day, by all means go get a full sized knife. The Arc Lite is a small knife for easy carry, backup, and small jobs. It's small.

The handle is very ergonomic for grasping and drawing, for three finger stability in lite cutting (note use of word lite here and in the name of the knife), and for keeping the hand from sliding onto the blade. Works great. The Arc Lite is my fixed blade replacement for a pocket folder. I drop it sheath and all into my front pants pocket (don't tell any policemen). It gets used for cutting up lunch, opening packages, any little day to day chore. It makes an excellent paring knife in the kitchen. It is comfortable enough to cut through just about anything once, and it is...lite.

Plus, to my eye, it possesses about the sweetest lines I have ever seen on a knife. Love it.

I can't comment on the steel issue, becuase mine is S90V of course. But for $20, plus a buck and about 5 minutes to throw a whip stitch of para-cord around the handle, whoo, guess what all my training partners are getting for Christmas?

Hey Will: I hope that the sheath will still work with a wrap of cord around the handle?
 
Tommi,
The production ArcLite will be approx 2.5 ozs.

Quijebo,
We have no plans of offering the knife with a cord wrapped handle at this time. However, the slot arrangement does lend itself to 'user rapping'
wink.gif


Rogue Spear,
We don't have a definate date yet, but we are planning sometime after the first of December....probally the end of the first week. 1sks should be the first dealer we ship to since he put in the first order...Go Mikie!

CAL,
Thanks, but believe me, it took some neat design work on Darrels part, and some VERY expensive tooling on our part to get that price that low. We really hope you do like it
wink.gif


Cliff,
I believe that you will be pleasantly surprised with the 'ease of carry, ergonomics, a cutting performance, per dollar ratio', once you try out one of the production knives. Let us know what you think.

Steve,
Yup, the production ArcLite will have a 3.25" blade...thats what the custom ArcLite we got from DDR had. I guess he has made some different sizes? Yes the ArcLite will still fit in the sheath after cord wrapping. I would show you a pic of my proto after I wraped it, but after several attempts, it still looks like I drank a 12 pack and went to my first macramae<sp> class. But not to worry, the contours and slots lend themselves to a nice 'cris-cross' pattern, I just need to get some better cord and hold the blade in a vise or something
wink.gif


Thanks everybody for the interest!

------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
www.camillusknives.com
 
Anthony :

Why are you assuming the ArcLite has a thick edge?
Click to expand...

Weaker steels need a greater cross section in order to have the necessary functional level of durability. You either have a choice of making a blade which will cut at a lower level, or having the functional level of tolerable stress reduced which in turn reduces the scope of work for the blade.

Will :

per dollar ratio
Click to expand...

In regards to evaluations done in this manner, the winner is easily the cheapest blade you can find. I can buy a Henckels paring knife for $5 Canadian, and in order for the ArcLite to beat it in a per cost ratio it would have to outperform it 5+:1, that is not going to happen.

You can make the same argument for any decent production blade and they all lose as the price rises. Compare the Bush Hog to a decent machete which you can get for $10-$15 dollars. Is the Bush Hog going to outperform this ~7-10x to one. No. However is it a better buy? Well there will be a performance gain, is this enough to account for the price jump? This depends obviously on the user.

Mike, I never argued the point that it was a poor choice for its price, or that the blade in general was not worth $20. This is something that I in general don't even think is sensible to discuss as it is akin to "what is a more attractive color, blue or red". Its worth depends on your available funds + the performance of other blades, above and below its price range plus other factors like how much work it will actually see.

If I was presented with the design I would pass on it for several of the reasons I pointed out in the above it is not a user based design which is all I am interested in. If this was not an option then I would chose the steel that either gave the largest profit margin to maximize the cash flow or the lowest tolerated one in order to present the user with the best functional blade depending on what the desire was for the manufacturer. Regular 420 is probably better in terms of performance/cost, plain carbon steel like 1084 is easily better in the same regard and a cord wrap eliminates the rust issue with the handle which would be the biggest issue.

As for the cost issues of several spects like grip texture and cord wrapping, they are way off unless you are contracting them out to someone who prices work similar to McClung. Anyone can learn to do a decent high pressure cord wrap which would cover the ArcLite's handle in about a minute. Assuming you are paying them a really decent wage ($25 per hour, far in excess of factory line jobs), that is $0.50 extra for the wrap, and of course the cost of the cord, which would be even less. Grip texturing could be done at cost similar or less than all those holes.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 11-10-2000).]
 
Cliff Sayeth-"and a cord wrap eliminates the rust issue with the handle which would be the biggest issue.

As for the cost issues of several spects like grip texture and cord wrapping, they are way off unless you are contracting them out to someone who prices work similar to McClung. Anyone can learn to do a decent high pressure cord wrap which would cover the ArcLite's handle in about a minute. Assuming you are paying them a really decent wage ($25 per hour, far in excess of factory line jobs), that is $0.50 extra for the wrap, and of course the cost of the cord, which would be even less. Grip texturing could be done at cost similar or less than all those holes."


Cliff, you must have some insight to knife manufacturing that Camillus doesn't.
I am sure that if a cord wrapped handle cost an extra .50, they would do it.(Since I have been assured by their productionpeople that cord wrapping would probably raise the retail price almost $10 dollars, it will be cheaper for the end user to wrap -if they so desire-.

Why not leave the choice to the consumer, if its so easy, let the buyer do it, and save a few bucks at the retail level (*because those .50 cents add up..)

Cord wrap would actually make Corrosion WORSE on a carbon steel neck knife since the cord traps moisture,sweat, rain,and you cannot clean underneath it without removing (ruining) the cord. The only acceptable alternative is epoxy coating the cord, which will probably cost more than .50..........
besides, what about the blade??? Coating would help a carbon knife, but the edge is still exposed..my experience with carbon steel neck knives is less than positive, but Ilive in a hot humid place, and I am a hot, sweaty guy. YMMV.

Anyway, I got to play with the ArcLite prototype at the NY Custom show this weekend...its a sweet, lightweight, little knife. Lots of users commented on how practical it was, and as a user myself, I think it fits its intended role nicely. I wouldnt hesitate to skin a deer with one. It has good edge geometry and would make an excellent whittler or hideout knife. Nice kydex, too.



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"The most effective armor is to keep out of range"-Italian proverb
 
Cliff,
Just a couple of points....

Carbon steel was not an option in this case because we wanted the ArcLite neck knife to appeal to a wide range of users, including those that work around water and don't want rusty knives hanging around their necks. I would REALLY like to think you could understand that concept.

I don't follow your line of reasoning that the ArcLite is not a 'user based design'. Lets see, a flat ground, drop point, with a slight recurve 3.25" long out of THIN stock[.120"]. THe handle is skeletonized, which we realized is not as comfortable in LONG TERM use, it certainly makes the knife thinner and light, therefore MUCH easier to carry for long periods of time as a neck knife. Darrel and CAMILLUS came to these design criteria after much testing and prototyping.

I can understand if you simply don't LIKE the knife, but to catagorize it as 'not user based' , especially before every USING one, would seem to me to be a bit premature and flippant. Members of this forum who have purchased custom Arlite's and used them, seem to like them. Thats one of the reasons we decided to make a production version of the knife. That, and the testing we did ourselves. Hell, I didn't like neck knives at all when I started this project, but I kept an open mind because people I respected kept tellimg me how great the knife was and how easy it was to carry. So.....if you want to carry a $5 paring knife around your neck, send it off and get a custom kydex sheath made for it, and if you are a careful shopper, you will have the same of slightly more in your neck knife than if you bought an ArcLite from 1sks.com
wink.gif



------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery www.camillusknives.com

[This message has been edited by Will Fennell (edited 11-13-2000).]
 
Cliff,

You're so full of sh** your eyes are brown. All you offer is opinion based on no facts and no experience with the piece. And we all know about opinions; they are like a**holes, everybody has one and most of them stink, especially yours.
smile.gif


------------------
Rs
Don
Medicine Man of the Extinct Fugowee Tribe
 
Anthony:


Why not leave the choice to the consumer, if its so easy
Click to expand...

Why not leave the blades unsharpened by the same logic? As for the cord wrap price, the time and materials cost are obvious to anyone who had done any knot work, and it is trivial to estimate cost from that. It is hardly skilled work, they start with much more complicate knot work in the scouts. But if you want to think that $0.10 of materials and 1 minutes work is worth $10 that is up to you.

Cord wrap would actually make Corrosion WORSE on a carbon steel neck knife since the cord traps moisture,sweat, rain,and you cannot clean underneath it without removing (ruining) the cord.
Click to expand...

Simple cord wraps are not bonded and are easy to remove. However this is not even as issue here as the reason for the cord wrap is not to prevent rust but to put something between your grip and it eliminating problems of sanitation and grip security.

Will :

including those that work around water and don't want rusty knives hanging around their necks.
Click to expand...

I live next to the ocean and have been wearing an unprotected nonstainless steel neck knife for the last month. I have relatives who are fisherman who use plain carbon fillet blades. Rust is not an impossible problem to solve.


I don't follow your line of reasoning that the ArcLite is not a 'user based design'.
Click to expand...

The handle geometry is poor interms of ergonomics and security which significantly reduces cutting ability and scope of work, similar does the choice of blade steel, but not nearly as severe. In addition to this are features such as the holes that are for looks only and in fact reduce function in both a per cost ratio, which seems to be a major item here, and in terms of overall use.


I can understand if you simply don't LIKE the knife
Click to expand...

It is a tool not a person, I don't have any emotional attachment to it one way or the other.


before every USING one, would seem to me to be a bit premature and flippant.
Click to expand...

The scope of work I have done with the blades I have used covers similar designs and materials. I am comfortable extrapolating from that.


if you want to carry a $5 paring knife around your neck, send it off and get a custom kydex sheath made for it
Click to expand...

The sheath is a decent value, as custom Kydex work is rare in the $20 range. Of course that is not custom but production, but the point remains. However I am more interested in the tool than the carrying case as the function of one is irrelevant without the function of the other.

-Cliff
 
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