Strider Knives, Game Over!

[Spark]

I fully expected someone to point out a few makers and designers who do have military credentials - and right along with it, words to the effect they have better creds than an engineer or tradesman whose been making knives for years.

Please cite. I don't see any posts saying that knifemakers with actual military experience are somehow better than engineers & tradesman.

Again, this soap opera is dealing with a misconception. Just because a maker has combat experience means nothing in the grind and grit world of knifemaking. It is a spurious argument that surviving combat equals better insight and design - as the overwhelming majority of civilian makers proves every day. That Strider Knives can compete, does compete, and does make knives that successfully sell is a testimony to hard core knifemaking and marketing skills. That's what it takes in this business, not Condition Red awareness of surroundings.

That ignores the core problem... When you use claimed combat experience as a reason for doing things a certain way, and it turns out you lied about this experience, it calls into question everything you do, because your credibility is shattered.

If I say to you that I'm an ABS Mastersmith, and make some great knives, and tell people that my designs reflect my training, etc, then it comes out I lied about being a mastersmith, the knives can certainly stand on their own. It doesn't mean that I didn't use lies to hype them or explain away any issues.

Those who continue to insist that claims of being a combat vet are insufficiently substantiated are still locked into a belief that it makes a difference on the market place. That belief is false - being a combat vet, or not, stands alone. Being a good knifemaker and producing quantity and quality sufficient to achieve a standing in the market at a price point stands on it's own.

This neatly ignores that claims of combat experience are part of the marketing of these knives, and used as reasoning behind the designs themselves. Being a "combat vet" has nothing to do with the technical design and manufacturing, but it certainly fits into how designs are made and brought into being... after all, if someone is "special operations" and has "years of experience" and they make a knife "taking all these needs into consideration" it's certainly brings into question where this design insight came from when the experience never existed in the first place. Why, you could even say that the person in question doesn't know what they are talking about, yes?

This leaves the issue of verifiable combat experience to most who question it. And, as I pointed out, combat experience has nothing to do with knife production. It's totally unrelated. The anguish and disappointment I read in posts about it seems based on the destruction of an expectation and illusion. "I'm angry because I found out my cherished belief isn't true."

Or, more accurately, "I was lied to, and people like yourself think that liars aren't a big deal, and this entire post you made is a smokescreen to excuse lying, especially the lying of people who got caught." Being a good designer or grinder or smith doesn't give you a free pass to lie about everything else.

You have to accept a lie - that combat is a "holy" experience - to accept that being a combat vet makes a difference, and then give credence to negative speculation.

Well, guess what? As a nation we recognize that those who serve can make the ultimate sacrifice for the good of the people. This is, in some ways, a holy thing; that sacrifice is sacred to some. There's a reason why the Medal Of Honor requires an act of Congress to award. There's a reason why Congress passed the Stolen Valor act - because as a nation, we recognize that those who use the deaths and valor of servicemen aren't just things to be ignored. Congress actually decided that this is a big enough problem that people who pose as military heroes deserve jail time; that indicates it's not just something to ignore.

It's pretty simple, tirod3. No excuses, no smokescreens, no obfuscation. Lying is bad. Right? Someone who lies to you deliberately, repeatedly, and steals the honor of those who died in the service of the nation is not something we should give a "free pass" to.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Since being a better knifemaker because of military experience has nothing to do with the original posters topic, it is just another red herring. The question is whether Duane is a liar and a fraud, or a USMC Scout Sniper.

 

[RWS]

tirod, I'm impressed! You'd make any third world dictator very proud of having you as their spin doctor. :thumbup:

If I say to you that I'm an ABS Mastersmith, and make some great knives.......

Spark didn't pass his Mastersmith's test....here are his test knives he entered....

 

[teacher]

tirod3, I am sure or at least hope, you are not... but you come across as delusional...
........as I shall address below....

Well, at least someone again admits the "Knife buying for investment purposes!" is a ludicrous joke. It is. I wait expectantly every day to see scam-mail in my trash box inviting me to invest in knife futures, but even those guys know better. 'Nuf said.

What does this have to do with anything in this thread ? Who ever said "Knife buying for investment purposes!"

Only one guy mentioned that at the start of this thread to the best of my recall. Why do you seem to be stuck on that ?

Of course they are not investments.... unless someone just happens to get lucky.... and many have.

I fully expected someone to point out a few makers and designers who do have military credentials - and right along with it, words to the effect they have better creds than an engineer or tradesman whose been making knives for years.

Same here .. who in this thread has conveyed that message ?

Why are you stuck on that ?

Again, this soap opera is dealing with a misconception. Just because a maker has combat experience means nothing in the grind and grit world of knifemaking. It is a spurious argument that surviving combat equals better insight and design - as the overwhelming majority of civilian makers proves every day. That Strider Knives can compete, does compete, and does make knives that successfully sell is a testimony to hard core knifemaking and marketing skills. That's what it takes in this business, not Condition Red awareness of surroundings.

Exactly! ..... So why did STRIDER use this as part of their marketing ?

Those who continue to insist that claims of being a combat vet are insufficiently substantiated are still locked into a belief that it makes a difference on the market place. That belief is false - being a combat vet, or not, stands alone. Being a good knifemaker and producing quantity and quality sufficient to achieve a standing in the market at a price point stands on it's own. We already have achieved consensus the products are not the argument - if it's not the intelligent design of the knives or leading edge components that are under question, then neither are the skills that produce them.

Who is locked in that belief ?
YOU are the one that keeps bringing it up.

Combat Vet or Peter Pan really makes no difference.... as long as a quality priduct is produced.

So, why did STRIDER KNIFE feel the need to introduce their "Real Combat Vet" status into their marketing ?

That seems to be what is in question.

So address that .....

Maybe you can enlighten us.......

This leaves the issue of verifiable combat experience to most who question it. And, as I pointed out, combat experience has nothing to do with knife production. It's totally unrelated. The anguish and disappointment I read in posts about it seems based on the destruction of an expectation and illusion. "I'm angry because I found out my cherished belief isn't true."

More words that say nothing........... just BS.

You are right though in this..... combat experience does not automatically equate with good knife production.

Who here expects that it does ? That, once again... is not the question.

You alone seem to be stuck on that.

No, you're angry because your cherished belief in the holy annointing of warriors in combat is proven false, and the construct that some immeasurable superiority or enlightenment unavailable to common mortals has failed. That's because it doesn't exist. The draft, used to provide soldiers for WWII, Korea, and Vietnam long ago showed ordinary mortals are sent to war, and battle damaged or not, ordinary mortals return. They are nothing more than that.

More delusion you alone seem to be stuck on.....

You have to accept a lie - that combat is a "holy" experience - to accept that being a combat vet makes a difference, and then give credence to negative speculation. Those who self righteously demand more answers from individuals miss an important point. You should be demanding answers from yourself. Why did you accept the delusion combat makes a difference?

More delusion.... I assume you are relating this to knife making... but I can't tell ????

You are the one that seems to be searching for answers from yourself... cause you alone are the one STUCK on this.

Again... this is not the question....

As I said about 1,000 posts back, you will not resolve this, and certainly not here. It's not about the knives, or the skills of the knifemakers, which the knives amply testify. It's about seeing the lie that is exposed in your own thinking.

Here you are bringing it up once again........

"It's not about the knives, or the skills of the knifemakers"

You are again correct.... it is not.

So why are YOU stuck on it.

You would do well....... IMO, of course ...... to check out the lies that are so glaringly exposed in your own thinking.

PS / Oh yeah, I almost forgot.

It appears or at least comes across to me ...... that your attitude toward the military and / or those that served .... sucks.

Check that observation out... in relation to your own thinking .... after you finish with the above.... if you ever do.

 

[wolfmann601]

I guess what it shakes down to is whether you would buy a hunting knife from an accomplished chess player who has never hunted and is also a knife maker or an accomplished hunter who has gutted and skun thousands of animals and is also a knife maker.

Assuming both knives are equal in quality and price........................................would it make a difference.

What about the Chess Player's claim he is an MOH winner????

 

[Jose Reyes]

Well, at least someone again admits the "Knife buying for investment purposes!" is a ludicrous joke. It is. I wait expectantly every day to see scam-mail in my trash box inviting me to invest in knife futures, but even those guys know better. 'Nuf said.

I fully expected someone to point out a few makers and designers who do have military credentials - and right along with it, words to the effect they have better creds than an engineer or tradesman whose been making knives for years.

Again, this soap opera is dealing with a misconception. Just because a maker has combat experience means nothing in the grind and grit world of knifemaking. It is a spurious argument that surviving combat equals better insight and design - as the overwhelming majority of civilian makers proves every day. That Strider Knives can compete, does compete, and does make knives that successfully sell is a testimony to hard core knifemaking and marketing skills. That's what it takes in this business, not Condition Red awareness of surroundings.

Those who continue to insist that claims of being a combat vet are insufficiently substantiated are still locked into a belief that it makes a difference on the market place. That belief is false - being a combat vet, or not, stands alone. Being a good knifemaker and producing quantity and quality sufficient to achieve a standing in the market at a price point stands on it's own. We already have achieved consensus the products are not the argument - if it's not the intelligent design of the knives or leading edge components that are under question, then neither are the skills that produce them.

This leaves the issue of verifiable combat experience to most who question it. And, as I pointed out, combat experience has nothing to do with knife production. It's totally unrelated. The anguish and disappointment I read in posts about it seems based on the destruction of an expectation and illusion. "I'm angry because I found out my cherished belief isn't true."

No, you're angry because your cherished belief in the holy annointing of warriors in combat is proven false, and the construct that some immeasurable superiority or enlightenment unavailable to common mortals has failed. That's because it doesn't exist. The draft, used to provide soldiers for WWII, Korea, and Vietnam long ago showed ordinary mortals are sent to war, and battle damaged or not, ordinary mortals return. They are nothing more than that.

You have to accept a lie - that combat is a "holy" experience - to accept that being a combat vet makes a difference, and then give credence to negative speculation. Those who self righteously demand more answers from individuals miss an important point. You should be demanding answers from yourself. Why did you accept the delusion combat makes a difference?

As I said about 1,000 posts back, you will not resolve this, and certainly not here. It's not about the knives, or the skills of the knifemakers, which the knives amply testify. It's about seeing the lie that is exposed in your own thinking.

I think you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if the majority is of the opinion that they make superior or inferior tools. All men are mortal but some excel at certain pursuits. They have reached the peak and are admired by others who wish to follow in their footsteps.

In boxing for every great champion there are thousands of mediocre fighters who won't even reach contender status. That's not to say that any one of those fighters wouldn't make a great trainer and lead a prospect to the championship. Despite his aptitude as a trainer, do you feel there's anything wrong with a journeyman claiming to have been the middleweight champion in order to garner interest and gain some clients? Do you think those credentials would not be taken into consideration in choosing a trainer?

If they serve no benefit, why make up these stories at all? Serving in combat as a member of an elite group is something only a small percentage of our military personnel ever accomplish, while many more make the attempt but wash out. With that kind of history you're going to have at least certain people looking up to you and giving your views more validity than the average Joe's. The stories or their veracity might not make any difference to some people, but those that had the wool pulled over their eyes deserve an apology.

If any government, military or law enforcement groups were also misled then I can see how the price for truth may be considered to steep for most people. It just seems too easy to provide POWNET with a proper name or explanation and request the info be removed. I'm not a lawyer but I was under the impression you had an obligation to set the record straight to limit any damages you incur before taking someone to court. I think that eventually we'll learn the truth but it will likely take a long time.

 

[teacher]

Hold down the fort for a while "wolfie" ......
.................. I gotta leave for a bit ...... lol .......

 

[wolfmann601]

I'll do my best Teacher!!!

but, even if you went to Aruba via bicycle this thread will remain unanswered. The only known here is the unknown.....

Have a nice trip!

 

[Mike G]

I have a question:

Does anyone have copies of SKI ads that say anything about them being former combat vets, Special Ops, Rangers with combat experience, ect? How about copies of interviews, or other marketing items claiming the above?

If so, please email me with scans, links, or whatever you have that can be printed off.

 

[DaveH]

There used to be such wording on Buck website back when they were doing their collaboration. I Don't know if it's still there.

 

[JD Mandrell]

There used to be such wording on Buck website back when they were doing their collaboration. I Don't know if it's still there.

Yep.

Tactical Experts: Mick Strider, Duane Dwyer of Strider Knives When Buck Knives began to develop a line of tactical knives, we turned to the best in the industry-former military Special Operations personnel Mick Strider and Duane Dwyer of Strider Knives. Both Strider and Dwyer have personally experienced dangerous situations and know what it takes for a knife to deliver when lives depend on it. With finely tuned details, high-end steels and virtually indestructible handles, Buck Strider Tactical knives deliver the dependable performance that is crucial for tactical and survival missions.

http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/236

Oddly enough, their backgrounds have been removed from their own website???

http://www.badlandsforums.com/faq/WhoIsStriderKnives.shtml

 

[DaveH]

If you do a google search and just look at the knife sites you'll find things like this:

Oso Grand:

Owners Mick Strider and Duane Dwyer are quite experienced in military special operations.

LA police gear:

Owners Mick Strider and Duane Dwyer are quite experienced in military special operations.

Tactical Knives (I pulled this from BlackFive net) :

Tactical Knives, from May of 1999. It has an article entitled, "Hard-Core Strider! As Tough As They Come!" The article was written by W. W. Wright. In it, Wright stated that Duane Dwyer was a graduate of the USMC Scout/Sniper School, the USMC Urban Sniper Course, and the USMC Sniper Instructor School, as well as having cross-trained with Naval Special Warfare Personnel (SEALs), the British Royal Marines, British SAS, Israeli Defense Forces, South Korean ROK Marines, the Danish Military Police, the French Foreign Legion, and the South African Defense Forces. In addition, Wright stated that Dwyer worked in collaboration with Federal Law Enforcement on drug interdiction operations. Wright also stated that Dwyer served as an Observer/Advisor in the former Yugoslavian Republic, and in Central and South America.

 

[Codger_64]

You can delete, but you can't hide from archived material such as on the "Wayback Machine"

Who is Strider Knives?
As originally printed in the 2002 Tactical Annual by American Handgunner. Article by Darryl Bolke.

“Strider Knives has a unique history that sets the tone for why the blades have become so desirable in the tactical community. Company founder Mick Strider made his first knife during his high school years. In 1984, while serving in the Army, Mick took up building knives for his fellow soldiers. According to Mick, we made around 75 knives from 1984 to 1994. In 1994, the up-and-coming business was awarded a government contract to make knives for Naval Special Warfare Group 1. These models are known as the WB and BG.

In order to fulfill this contract, Mick became partners with Duane Dwyer. The two had met in a martial arts class and had become close friends. Mick has a background in Special Operations Command (SOCOM) with the U.S. Army. Nothing else really needs to be said. His partner, Duane, has a very impressive background in the Marine Corps as a sniper. He also has extensive experience as a commercial hardhat diver. Both men have overseas combat experience in various capacities and are well-known within the special operations community.

Demand from the special operations community became overwhelming, and the business took off. In 1998, Mick and Duane began making knives full-time. Strider Knives and a custom maker of high quality web gear named Special Operations Equipment were both operating out of the same shop in Oceanside, CA. The shop was strategically located close to a large customer base at Camp Pendleton and the Naval Special Warfare Center in nearby Coronado.

Due to increased demand for both companies’ products, Strider has recently moved into a new shop with some new equipment to help produce a better, more consistent product. The new shop is still full of interesting characters. The Strider Guys, as they are known among their regular clientele, began hiring follow operators to help with the overload."

This was evidently removed from the site on Nov 13, 2006. Did something happen on or around that date?

 

[roughedges]

You can delete, but you can't hide from archived material such as on the "Wayback Machine"

I was just in the process of posting that myself. Most interesting to me is the part about Socom, snipers and overseas combat experience. It reads almost like a novel! oh, wait... nevermind!

 

[Clovis]

You can delete, but you can't hide from archived material such as on the "Wayback Machine"



This was evidently removed from the site on Nov 13, 2006. Did something happen on or around that date?

This lawsuit ended several months prior.

There's still companies using the fictional accounts of his military service in violation of said lawsuit.


=======================
Section 1, part (c), Mick Strider had to allocute as follows:

Mick Strider hereby acknowledges that he has never been deployed as a U.S. Army Ranger. Strider also acknowledges that he has never served in or participated with SOCOM (Special Operations Command). Strider also acknowledges that he has never had any combat experience with any branch of the U.S. Military or U.S. Government Agencies, nor has he participated in any "Black Ops". Strider served in 2/75, but never graduated Ranger School. Strider lost all rank, was barred from re-enlistment and was discharged from the Military as a Private.

(d) To the extent that any contrary representations have been made or or made in the future, by any other person or entity, Strider agrees he shall take the following affirmative steps within three (3) weeks after notice by Plaintiffs:
(1) send a letter via certified mail to the person or entity identified by the Plaintiffs affirming all of the information set forth in the first sentence of this paragraph and a request that any contrary representations be immediately corrected, and (2) send a copy of that letter and a certified mail receipt to Plaintiffs or their attorneys of record. Notice shall be deemed effective on Strider by sending a letter to Strider at his last known address or by sending a letter to his attorney of record in this litigation via certified mail.

(e)SKI will immediately cease and desist from holding Strider out as having ever been deployed as a U.S. Army Ranger, a member of or a participant with SOCOM, as having ever been deployed in "black ops", or as having had any combat experience with any branch of the U.S. Military or U.S. Government. SKI shall take immediate actions to correct any such representations currently made on its own website (see Exhibit B) and to the extent possible shall take immediate actions to correct any such representations by its business partners, including but not limited to advertising regarding SKI's partnership and distribution through Buck Knives.

(f) Strider agrees not to defame Plaintiffs in the future.

(g) The Parties acknowledge that the proceeding subdivisions are all material covenants to the settlement of this dispute and that should enforcement of this agreement be necessary, Defendants agree that injunctive relief would be appropriate.

 

[Codger_64]

This lawsuit ended several months prior....

(e)SKI will immediately cease and desist from holding Strider out as having ever been deployed as a U.S. Army Ranger, a member of or a participant with SOCOM, as having ever been deployed in "black ops", or as having had any combat experience with any branch of the U.S. Military or U.S. Government. SKI shall take immediate actions to correct any such representations currently made on its own website (see Exhibit B) and to the extent possible shall take immediate actions to correct any such representations by its business partners, including but not limited to advertising regarding SKI's partnership and distribution through Buck Knives....

So the deletion wasn't a willful act on the part of Mick and Dwayne, but an act of forced compliance with the settlement of the lawsuit. Suggesting that the information presented would have remained if not for the legal requirement to remove it.

 

[roughedges]

The judgement in that suit also seems to hold Strider responsible for the removal of erroneous information and ad copy by any "person or entity". So, according to the letter of the ruling, Strider would be responsible for correcting any ongoing false claims regarding his service, regardless of whom makes them. Legally, he should have probably already sent certified letters to that effect to the 3 companies mentioned above and possibly others.

 

[Codger_64]

But the judgement was not against information of the same type presented by and about Dwyer/Poland? Is this correct? He was not a defendant in this suit?

 

[roughedges]

But the judgement was not against information of the same type presented by and about Dwyer/Poland? Is this correct? He was not a defendant in this suit?

No, if I remember correctly it was Chris Osman v. Mick Strider. I'm sure someone has a link handy but, in a nutshell, Mick made some claims about Chris's service. Osman did not take kindly to this and sued Strider in return. In an interesting turn of events, Osman was vindicated, the questions about his service answered fully and Mick Strider commanded to do as Clovis quoted above.


If I have this incorrect, I would appreciate it if someone corrects me.

 

[Clovis]

This lawsuit ended several months prior.

There's still companies using the fictional accounts of his military service in violation of said lawsuit.


=======================
Section 1, part (c), Mick Strider had to allocute as follows:

Mick Strider hereby acknowledges that he has never been deployed as a U.S. Army Ranger. Strider also acknowledges that he has never served in or participated with SOCOM (Special Operations Command). Strider also acknowledges that he has never had any combat experience with any branch of the U.S. Military or U.S. Government Agencies, nor has he participated in any "Black Ops". Strider served in 2/75, but never graduated Ranger School. Strider lost all rank, was barred from re-enlistment and was discharged from the Military as a Private.

(d) To the extent that any contrary representations have been made or or made in the future, by any other person or entity, Strider agrees he shall take the following affirmative steps within three (3) weeks after notice by Plaintiffs:
(1) send a letter via certified mail to the person or entity identified by the Plaintiffs affirming all of the information set forth in the first sentence of this paragraph and a request that any contrary representations be immediately corrected, and (2) send a copy of that letter and a certified mail receipt to Plaintiffs or their attorneys of record. Notice shall be deemed effective on Strider by sending a letter to Strider at his last known address or by sending a letter to his attorney of record in this litigation via certified mail.

(e)SKI will immediately cease and desist from holding Strider out as having ever been deployed as a U.S. Army Ranger, a member of or a participant with SOCOM, as having ever been deployed in "black ops", or as having had any combat experience with any branch of the U.S. Military or U.S. Government. SKI shall take immediate actions to correct any such representations currently made on its own website (see Exhibit B) and to the extent possible shall take immediate actions to correct any such representations by its business partners, including but not limited to advertising regarding SKI's partnership and distribution through Buck Knives.

(f) Strider agrees not to defame Plaintiffs in the future.

(g) The Parties acknowledge that the proceeding subdivisions are all material covenants to the settlement of this dispute and that should enforcement of this agreement be necessary, Defendants agree that injunctive relief would be appropriate.

From knivesplus.com http://www.knivesplus.com/BUCK-KNIVES-STRIDER-TACTICAL.HTML

"Buck Knives, Strider series is a collaboration between Buck Knives, Mick Strider and Duane Dwyer (former members of United States Special Operations Command-SOCOM). Buck Striders are solid through and through, from the high tech ATS-34 stainless steel blades (custom heat treated by Paul Bos) to the almost indestructible G-10 handles. Buck Strider knives are tough!"

From Buckknives.com http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/236

Tactical Experts: Mick Strider, Duane Dwyer of Strider Knives

When Buck Knives began to develop a line of tactical knives, we turned to the best in the industry-former military Special Operations personnel Mick Strider and Duane Dwyer of Strider Knives. Both Strider and Dwyer have personally experienced dangerous situations and know what it takes for a knife to deliver when lives depend on it. With finely tuned details, high-end steels and virtually indestructible handles, Buck Strider Tactical knives deliver the dependable performance that is crucial for tactical and survival missions. (See www.striderknives.com)

knifecenter.com http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=BU882SBTG

..."Strider Knives owners Mick Strider and Duane Dwyer are former military Special Operations Forces personnel"...