The Bears' Den--Shirogorov Showcase

[dburpasaurus]

There are a few things to consider here. Firstly, the NL is SRBS (single row bearings)--the same as older model F series--while the F3R is MRBS (multi row bearings)--like all R series knives\, but you know that. Secondly, there are differences in tuning and action between any two knives out of the box, even those of the same model. Thirdly, the NL is a frame lock knife while all F3's--R's and others--are liner locks. Lotsa variables with there including less lockbar pressure from from a liner lock than a frame lock which can result in snappier action.

From my own knives and experience of 3 weeks using the NL World Tour knife, I found the NL to be very close to my SRBS F95T in flipping action with the edge to the Turtle and the closing action very much in favor of the latter as well. Of course, my Turtle has been through thousands of opening/closing cycles and I spent time tuning it to get it just so. I also have an F95R with MRBS which flips open with very little provocation, but I'd describe its action as comparatively smoother and the Turtle as freer and snappier. Both those knives free-drop closed while the NL did not, but I didn't tune up the NL either before sending it along to its next stop.

My F3 is an older SRBS that flips out nicely and easily flicks or shakes closed but doesn't free drop. In general, all my Shiros flip out well and lock up solid, though my F3 was initially too early for my taste and developed a bit of lock-stick as it broke in which I spent some time curing. I think that getting the action on your Shiro the way you want is a matter of proper tuning--polishing all interior sliding surfaces; deburring the bearing cages; and getting all the grease out, replacing it with a lighter lube.

Thanks Chazzy - just getting around to fully digesting your response. As always your post is very thorough and informative, very much appreciate your contributions to the forum. I am just now finishing going through this thread from the very beginning so I suppose you can say the Shiro bug has bitten me hard!

For now I think my humble little F95NL is satisfying the full TI Shiro itch. I have found the action and blade centering is incredibly sensitive to pivot screw tightness which is unsurprising given the tolerances of Shiros. I have her all tuned up, lubed up, and with a smidge of purple loctite the pivot now stays in place for days of use without adjustment. A turtle very much interests me but I am going to hold off for now and depending on the price of the kickstop collab I may jump on that. A big boy Shiro has always interested me and the milling on the 110 is gorgeous.

EDIT:

 

[Mr.sig239]

My next Shiro. Working on it. Lol.

 

[teddyashe]

The latest pic of the fam

Shiro's liner locks are the best folding knives on the market.

 

[ChazzyP]

3 F3's and a Cannabis--nice buncha knives, teddyashe . There is something special about Shirogorov liner locks and neither my F3 Python nor 111 are ever likely to leave my possession.

 

[marchone]

Shiro's liner locks are the best folding knives on the market.

I have to agree. Their liners are thicker than many framelocks.

I wish Shirogorov would make a small size linerlock. The only reservation I have about my HatiOn Lite is its handle is too thin for my large hands.

 

[marchone]

Double post

 

[marchone]

Deleted

 

[ericlosh]

i got a m390 hati on washers with g10 and wow! Sold the hation lite cause i missed my F3 i had and i wanted to try a hati on washers one day. This is a strong contender for best knife ive ever had. I strongly prefer the feel of the action compared to the bearings. Its stupid silky smooth and hydraulic a smidge and being on washers it will only get better. I didnt like the g10 on my F3 but i like it here on the hati and the milling is very very nice. For anyone that wants a crk flipper, what they really mean is they want a hati on washers. It just strikes me that this is what that would be like so no bother wishing CRK did it. This knife exceeds my expectaions a little bit which is phenomenal cause at the price points these are at i expect a lot. I know i wont like the free spinning pivot but i can put up with it

I tend to prefer smaller knives and the hation for me was perfect on paper but after a month or so i think i prefered the F3 with micarta even though its a huge knife by my standards. Something about it was just right; i guess i just prefer my shiros large though id still like to try out a neon lite one day. I wish more models had a washer option or a try way pivot like hiderer has done which lets face it is brilliant.

This one isnt going anywhere, id love to post some pics but imgur wont let me upload.

 

[ericlosh]

got some pics to upload

 

[ericlosh]

heres the rest of that list from the facebook page


11. Overall are of the workshop is just under 1000 sq.m.
13. Grinders used for blades were designed and made in-house. They have several know-hows which allow us to get that consistent blade geometry and finish.
14. When we were brining a particularly big piece of machinery in, we were actually forced to disassemble a part of the wall, move the machine in, and then rebuild the wall.
15. For our first stonewashing machine we’ve used a manual concrete mixer. But hey, at least we used proper stonewashing medium, and not gravel.
16. When we realized that the concrete mixer just wouldn’t cut it, we’ve ordered a machine really meant for stonewashing. It turned out to be a very high-quality piece that was also too small – our standard 95-mm blades would not fit inside. So we were forced to order another, bigger one.
17. We did put that first small stonewashing machine to good use, as we’ve used it for surface treatment of pins, screws, and standoffs. And today it has gone into honorary retirement as our lottery machine at Moscow knife shows.
19. Sergey set up his first workshop in his apartment. Then he moved to a garage, and, finally, into the building where the workshop resides to this day.
20. Machinery used at the workshop is modern, most of the machines are no more than 3 years old. At the same time, we have one Soviet-era machine from the 1970s, which fulfils a certain very specific task. First it took us a long while to find one, and then after we’d acquired it, we’ve spent 1.5 years on restoring it.
22. It can take Sergey up to a month to build a single custom.
23. Quality control at the workshop is performed by people who were formerly employed in quality control of aerospace/defense companies.
24. Quality is controlled not only at the very end of the process, but also 5 or 6 times throughout the making of each knife.
25. In order to be allowed to grind blades, an employee has to work in relevant positions at the workshop for at least 2 years.
26. We’ve almost stumbled upon Vanax 37 by accident. The maker contacted us with the following: ‘Hey guys, we’ve made a new steel which should do well on knives, want to try it out?’
27. The ‘stone’ pattern which is present on one of Custom Division pieces was taken from a plastic film that was on the window of Sergey’s own workshop.
28. Sergey has a small collection of his customs – he liked these pieces so much that he decided to keep them (and make exact same ones as he kept for those who actually ordered them).
29. Back when Sergey was deciding on what to do next in life, it was a tossup between knifemaking and hand-forged general metalworks, and Sergey almost chose the latter.
30. It so coincided that some guys online were claiming that we make our knives in China. Which we weren’t doing. But at the exact same time a Chinese maker contacted us and asked whether we would be interested in them doing any subcontract work for us. Well…they are nice guys, but that offer probably holds the record in how quickly we have turned something down.

Well, 27 facts, actually. The ones below we put in the list as a joke, and they are not actually true.

12. During the production process, a single part moves about 5km in total before becoming one of our folders.
18. Over the years we have replaced the gravel on the walkways leading to the workshop with used stonewashing medium.
21. Our production process is set up in such a way so that not all of our machinery is engaged at the same time. This slows us down a bit, but we were forced to spread out the production by the landlord after the building started to show signs of disintegration from all the vibration we were causing.

 

[Mr.sig239]

.
Happy New Year my Shiro friends! We celebrated with a couple of t-bones and I got the eye roll while snapping this pic. LOL. Couldn't end the year any better.

 

[ChazzyP]

i got a m390 hati on washers with g10 and wow! Sold the hation lite cause i missed my F3 i had and i wanted to try a hati on washers one day. This is a strong contender for best knife ive ever had. I strongly prefer the feel of the action compared to the bearings. Its stupid silky smooth and hydraulic a smidge and being on washers it will only get better. I didnt like the g10 on my F3 but i like it here on the hati and the milling is very very nice. For anyone that wants a crk flipper, what they really mean is they want a hati on washers. It just strikes me that this is what that would be like so no bother wishing CRK did it. This knife exceeds my expectaions a little bit which is phenomenal cause at the price points these are at i expect a lot. I know i wont like the free spinning pivot but i can put up with it

The Hati on washers is indeed a great knife. Yours looks like an awesome pick-up and your pics are excellent. The lighting really makes the handle milling--one of the several outstanding features of the model--pop. You're spot on with your CRK comparison as well. I've noted several times that while the Turtle--another great knife--is often referred to as the Sebenza of flippers, that sobriquet is more appropriately applied to the washered Hati given both its pivot type and the "hydraulic" action it yields.

I purchased mine a few years back on the Exchange as a user to be a user, but was initially surprised and disappointed in both its action and condition. It had had a hard life, passing through 4 or 5 owners in the couple years I was able to trace its provenance. There were not-insignificant scuffs to both sides of the blade that appeared perhaps more profound given its unusual finish--sort of a reflective, polished bead-blast that I've not seen on my other Shiros nor any other knife I've owned or handled. The knife barely flipped, the lockbar settled almost fully against its shoulder, and the blade was off-center. Something about it made we want to bring it back, though, much as I had my original BMK710 "rescue knife", and I immediately set to work. After a thorough cleaning, interior polishing, and re-lube the action became smoother, quicker, and the knife flips great now. I improved the centering slightly, but given the tight tolerances of Shiros, there's not much wiggle room to work with there. The blade scuffs are what they are and their presence saved me from the initial agony I went through marking up what was a brand new Turtle that's one of my most oft-used work knives. Even though the lock-up is all-but maxed out, it's totally solid and hasn't moved that last little bit through many flips and uses.

There's something about a knife that one's put a lot of work into that makes it special and very much one's own, and while I'd like to have a Hati R at some point, this one won't be sacrificed to make that or any other knife purchase possible.

 

[ericlosh]

The Hati on washers is indeed a great knife. Yours looks like an awesome pick-up and your pics are excellent. The lighting really makes the handle milling--one of the several outstanding features of the model--pop. You're spot on with your CRK comparison as well. I've noted several times that while the Turtle--another great knife--is often referred to as the Sebenza of flippers, that sobriquet is more appropriately applied to the washered Hati given both its pivot type and the "hydraulic" action it yields.

I purchased mine a few years back on the Exchange as a user to be a user, but was initially surprised and disappointed in both its action and condition. It had had a hard life, passing through 4 or 5 owners in the couple years I was able to trace its provenance. There were not-insignificant scuffs to both sides of the blade that appeared perhaps more profound given its unusual finish--sort of a reflective, polished bead-blast that I've not seen on my other Shiros nor any other knife I've owned or handled. The knife barely flipped, the lockbar settled almost fully against its shoulder, and the blade was off-center. Something about it made we want to bring it back, though, much as I had my original BMK710 "rescue knife", and I immediately set to work. After a thorough cleaning, interior polishing, and re-lube the action became smoother, quicker, and the knife flips great now. I improved the centering slightly, but given the tight tolerances of Shiros, there's not much wiggle room to work with there. The blade scuffs are what they are and their presence saved me from the initial agony I went through marking up what was a brand new Turtle that's one of my most oft-used work knives. Even though the lock-up is all-but maxed out, it's totally solid and hasn't moved that last little bit through many flips and uses.

There's something about a knife that one's put a lot of work into that makes it special and very much one's own, and while I'd like to have a Hati R at some point, this one won't be sacrificed to make that or any other knife purchase possible.

yeah the turtle or anything on bearings is not what crk would do and im glad they dont do flippers. Its not their market and they sell everything they make anyway. They already have more demand than they can make and they are extremely good at what they make. The only thing beyond the development they do id like to see is some interior milling, unless it ruined the balance or feel of the knife. The slow purposeful refining of their product is brilliant and how you can send in a 15 year old beat to shit sebenza and they will bring it back. Incredible and i could go on.
The hati with that bushing and on washers, i mean wow! im still blown away by it. I plan on flipping it a ton the next few months or longer before i take it apart and clean it and when that happens it should be absolutely sublime.

I have already taken the factory edge off with a new primary bevel of 16-17dps and a 20dps micro bevel. its gotta a little more refining to go but its dramatically sharper now.

 

[ericlosh]

i think rockstead is the only knife i know im not gonna touch with me edge pro or sharpmaker

Anyway this new edge puts the factory edge to shame which tends to be the case. Getting a sharpening system and stuff is a whole nother rabbit hole.

 

[ericlosh]

so how could a guy get in on that 95nl pass around?

 

[ChazzyP]

This whole CRK/Shirogorov comparison is really interesting, E ericlosh , as they're not only my two favorite makers, but I find considerable commonality in their approaches despite the fact that they produce very different sorts of knives. What you refer to as CRK's "...slow purposeful refining of their product [brilliance]..." is the same quality I see and so much appreciate in Shirogorov. Both companies found, or rather created, their market niche and could have greatly expanded to produce, sell, and profit from higher volumes yet instead have stayed true to their vision of making the best knife possible within the capabilities that they have developed. Both companies have a certain design ethos that they follow and instead of responding to consumer whims they set their own market by making knives of quality and value that are unmistakable to those that appreciate them.

I too was blown away when I took that Hati apart and found a bushing pivot and the more I flip and use the knife the better the action gets. I've also had two Tabargans, the first with M390, blue anodized clip and liners, and custom 3D marbled CF scales I sold as it was too pretty/perfect to use. My second--more pedestrian with 2D G10 and 440C--suits me much better and is a regular user. Those are also on washers but with AXIS-style locks and swing free and easy like Benchmades on steroids--worth checking out if you appreciate BMKs as I do.

 

[ChazzyP]

so how could a guy get in on that 95nl pass around?

Unfortunately it would take a time machine at this point as the knife has now circled the globe and now resides in Sergey's personal collection after our friend @knoefz foolishly returned it.

The NL World Tour was run through Tom over at USN, the Shiro spokesman who wrote the "30 Facts" that were posted there as well as at the Facebook page you quoted. There's a thread at USN that follows the knife that passed through my hands as well as some posts of two others--one that traveled through Russia and another that was in the possession of an individual that plane-hopped internationally with it.

 

[ericlosh]

This whole CRK/Shirogorov comparison is really interesting, E ericlosh , as they're not only my two favorite makers, but I find considerable commonality in their approaches despite the fact that they produce very different sorts of knives. What you refer to as CRK's "...slow purposeful refining of their product [brilliance]..." is the same quality I see and so much appreciate in Shirogorov. Both companies found, or rather created, their market niche and could have greatly expanded to produce, sell, and profit from higher volumes yet instead have stayed true to their vision of making the best knife possible within the capabilities that they have developed. Both companies have a certain design ethos that they follow and instead of responding to consumer whims they set their own market by making knives of quality and value that are unmistakable to those that appreciate them.

I too was blown away when I took that Hati apart and found a bushing pivot and the more I flip and use the knife the better the action gets. I've also had two Tabargans, the first with M390, blue anodized clip and liners, and custom 3D marbled CF scales I sold as it was too pretty/perfect to use. My second--more pedestrian with 2D G10 and 440C--suits me much better and is a regular user. Those are also on washers but with AXIS-style locks and swing free and easy like Benchmades on steroids--worth checking out if you appreciate BMKs as I do.

Both companies have the same problem of expanding production and maintaining standards and going after market trends would further distract from their focus.

i appreciate those 110's and theyre cool to see and id love to play with one just to see the difference from benchmade on the feel. However i stick to liner and frame locks from an ease of maintenence stand point and have done so long enough that i find other locks obnoxious as i go to disengage the non existent liner or frame lock.

The 30 facts post was great as the companies i prefer or hold the highest opinions of are very forthcoming on what it takes to make what they make and the ins and outs. Spyderco and CRK are outstanding in this regard and i love seeing sal on the forums and tim is pretty interactive also. CRK has listed specific tolerances somewhere and so on; you get a real idea of why things cost what they do. I know my shiros are well made and such but the infromation isnt as out there and not being usa based and as widespread as the two mentioned companies certainly is a part of that but as time goes on id love to see more posts like the 30 facts. After all im only a consumer and my understanding of all the processes and production methods is that of a novice, were all passionate and tend to love being educated about the brands we support.

Heres hoping they do another pass around someday

 

[TALON52]

 

[Mr.sig239]

Time for lunch.