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Update on 7" knife test concerning MAD DOG.
- Thread starter Mike Turber
- Start date
- Status
I do not know Mike Turber personally but after viewing his conduct for 1+ years, he has shown himself to be credible, with no reason/motive to fake the tests.
I own a couple of Mad Dogs and I love them. I was pretty sure however that the Busse would come out on top and didn't even know if the MD would come out at second or not.
All my MD's are fighters and as Mike, stated, they fit this role very well. As fighters, MDK are among the best. The tests seemed objective and I believe the results. The ATAK preformed well, but others just did the job better.
The notch in the blade idea sounds far fetched but I am definitely willing to listen to any explanations to arrive at any sort of truth.
I still like my MD's because they do what I need them to do but I am really interested in hearing the new ATAK RC results and X-Ray results. I've always been somewhat leery about the claims made about MDK. On the flip side, I've been very suspicious about claims made about several other knife brands and custom makers including my Emerson custom folders.
This is the first objective test that I have seen in awhile. People exaggerate too much about what their knives can do, whether it come to cutting, sharpness and especially abuse. I have never seen a knife that held up to the wild claims it was given. Even classics like the Benchmade CQC7 was claimed to have magical properties for awhile. I'm sorry but if you put it through a car door, or oil drums, the edge is going to get messed up.
Hopefully this will all resolve itself and become a milestone for knifemakers and users alike. Although they would like their knives to do certain things, sometimes they can't. Sometimes you have to be careful with your knives, often they'll need resharpening or oiling.
Jason
I own a couple of Mad Dogs and I love them. I was pretty sure however that the Busse would come out on top and didn't even know if the MD would come out at second or not.
All my MD's are fighters and as Mike, stated, they fit this role very well. As fighters, MDK are among the best. The tests seemed objective and I believe the results. The ATAK preformed well, but others just did the job better.
The notch in the blade idea sounds far fetched but I am definitely willing to listen to any explanations to arrive at any sort of truth.
I still like my MD's because they do what I need them to do but I am really interested in hearing the new ATAK RC results and X-Ray results. I've always been somewhat leery about the claims made about MDK. On the flip side, I've been very suspicious about claims made about several other knife brands and custom makers including my Emerson custom folders.
This is the first objective test that I have seen in awhile. People exaggerate too much about what their knives can do, whether it come to cutting, sharpness and especially abuse. I have never seen a knife that held up to the wild claims it was given. Even classics like the Benchmade CQC7 was claimed to have magical properties for awhile. I'm sorry but if you put it through a car door, or oil drums, the edge is going to get messed up.
Hopefully this will all resolve itself and become a milestone for knifemakers and users alike. Although they would like their knives to do certain things, sometimes they can't. Sometimes you have to be careful with your knives, often they'll need resharpening or oiling.
Jason
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 15,219
Got a few comments here:
Crowinghorse - The only reason you've only seen the "disappointed" posts on this forum is because they tend to get deleted with regularity elsewhere. That, or edited, or the user is banned or something else. It's not like I don't have first hand knowledge of this....
Anyhow, Edge chipping has been widely reported, yet somehow this is a new occurance? Ask Aubrey and Cliff... oh wait, they are part of the vast conspiracy to do in Mad Dog. No one else has ever had a chip, or a problem... yeah right. Heck, according to Mad Dog, he's only had 6 knives returned ever, even though the industry standard for return is way higher than that (like around 6%), wow, he must be batting around .05% on his returns. Everyone with a complaint must be a liar.
Carl - That story sounds really plausible, except the knife wasn't bought at a flea market, but an authorized Mad Dog Dealer. Now, I don't know about you, but I find it a bit more of a stretch that all this happened, THEN the knife was sent to this dealer from a second / third party who after all this trouble want's to get paid.
If it was sold as a used knife maybe. But this knife was sold as new, for a new price and was in new condition when it was bought. As such, I find it an incredible leap in logic (like the grand canyon), that someone is going to -
Send a fake order? Sure, I can buy that since all it takes is a little computer work, or crafty reciept writing. With Busse I believe what was happening was the good knives were being marked as "shipped" but were being diverted. That's a lot less work than the above scenario. After all, it works for UPS employees.
But to be aware that your reject knives are being stolen as early as 3 years ago, and yet are still using the same methods to mark your reject knives the same, easily hidden way, despite this problem? Right. Fills me with faith, to be sure, I mean, how as a customer am I going to know that the knife I buy is a real Mad Dog? Just because it has the stamp on the side, the same kydex sheath, and came from an authorized dealer, I still have to Xray each knife to make sure it's not a reject? Puhleeze.
Sorry, this doesn't add up.
And, again, that's fine and dandy though, I'll accept this knife as being a fake, no problem. I'll overlook that it came from a Mad Dog dealer, with the Mad Dog super proprietary handles, current hard chrome, stamp, and kydex sheath. No problem, out of all the ones out there, we got a fake for our tests.
Any dealer who has one in stock is welcome to step up to the plate and provide a genuine one for testing, since ours doesn't pass muster. We're more than willing to eat our words, you guys just need to provide the real deal genuine article since ours didn't make the grade. That way there will be no excuses.
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 04 November 1999).]
Crowinghorse - The only reason you've only seen the "disappointed" posts on this forum is because they tend to get deleted with regularity elsewhere. That, or edited, or the user is banned or something else. It's not like I don't have first hand knowledge of this....
Anyhow, Edge chipping has been widely reported, yet somehow this is a new occurance? Ask Aubrey and Cliff... oh wait, they are part of the vast conspiracy to do in Mad Dog. No one else has ever had a chip, or a problem... yeah right. Heck, according to Mad Dog, he's only had 6 knives returned ever, even though the industry standard for return is way higher than that (like around 6%), wow, he must be batting around .05% on his returns. Everyone with a complaint must be a liar.
Carl - That story sounds really plausible, except the knife wasn't bought at a flea market, but an authorized Mad Dog Dealer. Now, I don't know about you, but I find it a bit more of a stretch that all this happened, THEN the knife was sent to this dealer from a second / third party who after all this trouble want's to get paid.
If it was sold as a used knife maybe. But this knife was sold as new, for a new price and was in new condition when it was bought. As such, I find it an incredible leap in logic (like the grand canyon), that someone is going to -
- Locate a defective blank that's conveniently marked in the one place that's not going to be seen when it's finished.
- Steal this defective blank (and probably others without anyone noticing) and do most the work on the fly
- Mix it in with the others in a batch to be hard chromed (there is talk about hard chroming numbers not matching up)
- Fish the defective hard chromed knife out of the batch of knives that come back in, again, without being noticed.
- Leave the packing slip that says "50 newly chromed knives shipped" even though there are only 4x in the box...
- Finish the rest of the knife
- Steal a sheath for it
- Secret the knife out of the shop
- Locate a Mad Dog dealer who's going to accept this odd batch of 1-5 knives outside of their normal shipments. Red Flag, I mean, how are you going to do this: "Hey, want some Mad Dog's, I can source them for you, you don't even have to go through MD himself"
- Have this Mad Dog dealer send the payment to them (because if it's sent to Mad Dog, then the theif just lost everything they worked so hard for). A major red flag IMHO, I can't believe that the dealer wouldn't be in on it at this point.
- Have this all happen 3 years ago, yet this knife somehow just made it into circulation 8 months ago. Red Flag, someone is going to sit on a fake ATAK for 2 years before they finally sell it. With all the talk about how scarce Mad Dog knives are, I find it hard to believe that some dealer is going to sit on it. I find it really hard to believe that some thief is going to keep this knife pristine for 2 years before selling it.
Send a fake order? Sure, I can buy that since all it takes is a little computer work, or crafty reciept writing. With Busse I believe what was happening was the good knives were being marked as "shipped" but were being diverted. That's a lot less work than the above scenario. After all, it works for UPS employees.
But to be aware that your reject knives are being stolen as early as 3 years ago, and yet are still using the same methods to mark your reject knives the same, easily hidden way, despite this problem? Right. Fills me with faith, to be sure, I mean, how as a customer am I going to know that the knife I buy is a real Mad Dog? Just because it has the stamp on the side, the same kydex sheath, and came from an authorized dealer, I still have to Xray each knife to make sure it's not a reject? Puhleeze.
Sorry, this doesn't add up.
And, again, that's fine and dandy though, I'll accept this knife as being a fake, no problem. I'll overlook that it came from a Mad Dog dealer, with the Mad Dog super proprietary handles, current hard chrome, stamp, and kydex sheath. No problem, out of all the ones out there, we got a fake for our tests.
Any dealer who has one in stock is welcome to step up to the plate and provide a genuine one for testing, since ours doesn't pass muster. We're more than willing to eat our words, you guys just need to provide the real deal genuine article since ours didn't make the grade. That way there will be no excuses.
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 04 November 1999).]
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After reading the posts on KnifeForum.com, It sound like the situation with the stolen knives is a "true" possiblity. I never really doubted Mad Dog, but I did have an itch to scratch..
Ranger1 on the KnifeForum.com said he just
x-rayed his knives as something neat to send to Kevin and Shannon. The blades had "no" notch in them....again....NO notch.
This does not clear all of Mad Dog's blades, and you can bet I will x-ray mine if given the chance, but that does mean Mike Turber could have used a "fake" (more like 'incorrect') ATAK in the test. The tests were excellent and, unlike some, I did not think the Mad Dog ATAK would do as well as the Busse...why should it? (That is a different matter...)
Ranger1 said "no notches" in his blades...
end of that story...
Horse
Ranger1 on the KnifeForum.com said he just
x-rayed his knives as something neat to send to Kevin and Shannon. The blades had "no" notch in them....again....NO notch.
This does not clear all of Mad Dog's blades, and you can bet I will x-ray mine if given the chance, but that does mean Mike Turber could have used a "fake" (more like 'incorrect') ATAK in the test. The tests were excellent and, unlike some, I did not think the Mad Dog ATAK would do as well as the Busse...why should it? (That is a different matter...)
Ranger1 said "no notches" in his blades...
end of that story...
Horse
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- 15,219
It still doesn't explain why he hasn't taken steps to prevent this from happening (like destroying the defective blade on the spot) instead of hiding this tiny notch under where the handles are going to be. It's not like this has just happened, it's been going on for at least 3 years. Lots of time for fake Mad Dog's to get out there, yet this is the first time we've ever heard of a notch being used to tell if it's fake.
Again, if this knife is a fake, step up to the plate and provide a genuine knife. After all, if buying it from a MD dealer, with the MD sheath, MD hard chrome, and MD stamp on the side of the knife isn't a good enough indicator, heavan help us all.
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 04 November 1999).]
Again, if this knife is a fake, step up to the plate and provide a genuine knife. After all, if buying it from a MD dealer, with the MD sheath, MD hard chrome, and MD stamp on the side of the knife isn't a good enough indicator, heavan help us all.
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 04 November 1999).]
- Joined
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Mike,
I remember reading about that book you spoke of. I believe it was titled "Dark Prodigy". It was a biography on kevin(mad dog) Mclung written by Mr Mclung and another person. The book was printed but never Bound. One of the parties went bankrupt and the book was never finished. The piece that I read about it said that Kevin was a child prodigy, he secretely built his own rifle at the age of (I think)4. He was taken into some secret govt. black ops project where he was building weapons for the govt. He later became an assassin or something. He eventually wanted out of the lifestyle and was forced to hide out in the wilderness for years.
This is what I read, in no way am I commenting on wheather or not this is true. It is only what I read.
------------------
Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
I remember reading about that book you spoke of. I believe it was titled "Dark Prodigy". It was a biography on kevin(mad dog) Mclung written by Mr Mclung and another person. The book was printed but never Bound. One of the parties went bankrupt and the book was never finished. The piece that I read about it said that Kevin was a child prodigy, he secretely built his own rifle at the age of (I think)4. He was taken into some secret govt. black ops project where he was building weapons for the govt. He later became an assassin or something. He eventually wanted out of the lifestyle and was forced to hide out in the wilderness for years.
This is what I read, in no way am I commenting on wheather or not this is true. It is only what I read.
------------------
Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
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Mike,
The book was titled "Dark Genius" You can find it at amazon books.
The following was taken from an amazon.com book review.
From Kirkus Reviews , August 15, 1991
Spellbinding autobiography of a child prodigy--gifted in the black arts of weaponry--who enters the shadow world of international-arms sales. Raised in the San Francisco Bay area in the late 60's, McClung was the son of an aeronautical engineering genius and gave early proof of his own prodigious grip on ``mechanix´´ by secretly building a complex electric rifle when he was four. McClung was accepted by the Bay area´s genius education program for ``Mentally Gifted Minors,´´ whose special scientific projects were constantly sifted by the CIA for ideas--with the best projects (including McClung´s vest for bugging and eavesdropping) stolen and passed on to CIA scientists. At 14, McClung met OSS-CIA master spy John Colling, who taught him the basics of spy-craft. Then falconer and top CIA assassin Ray Goodreau taught him about falconry and animal training, unconventional weapons, and commando tactics; McClung had already shaped his body into a lethal weapon through the martial arts. Goodreau also sharpened him into a remorseless anticommunist death-dealer. Eventually, McClung fell in with Marty Rhymer, a CIA wire-man, and Gabe Margolis, a boorish Mossad commando, who together had formed Amida Ltd., later a CIA secret business whose cover was selling weapons, uniforms and support gear to California law enforcement agencies but which quickly became a feast of international arms dealing. McClung refined a new Diplomat poison- tipped pen-gun, and, with his deadly book-gun (a copy of The Book of the Dead that fired bullets) and always accurate laser rifle, etc., etc. (diagrams for many of the weapons are given), became the company´s chief inventor of killer ``toys.´´ Then Ibriham Haddad, fat and perfumed king of arms dealers, invaded Amida and took it over, adding his own poison to Amida´s already irredeemably corrupt juices. When Amida set up McClung to be assassinated, he hid out in the wilds for three years and abandoned dealing death downward from the top of the food chain. The rotten underbelly of US Intelligence, grippingly sliced open. Film rights sold. -- Copyright ©1991, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.
Sorry it was so long.
------------------
Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
The book was titled "Dark Genius" You can find it at amazon books.
The following was taken from an amazon.com book review.
From Kirkus Reviews , August 15, 1991
Spellbinding autobiography of a child prodigy--gifted in the black arts of weaponry--who enters the shadow world of international-arms sales. Raised in the San Francisco Bay area in the late 60's, McClung was the son of an aeronautical engineering genius and gave early proof of his own prodigious grip on ``mechanix´´ by secretly building a complex electric rifle when he was four. McClung was accepted by the Bay area´s genius education program for ``Mentally Gifted Minors,´´ whose special scientific projects were constantly sifted by the CIA for ideas--with the best projects (including McClung´s vest for bugging and eavesdropping) stolen and passed on to CIA scientists. At 14, McClung met OSS-CIA master spy John Colling, who taught him the basics of spy-craft. Then falconer and top CIA assassin Ray Goodreau taught him about falconry and animal training, unconventional weapons, and commando tactics; McClung had already shaped his body into a lethal weapon through the martial arts. Goodreau also sharpened him into a remorseless anticommunist death-dealer. Eventually, McClung fell in with Marty Rhymer, a CIA wire-man, and Gabe Margolis, a boorish Mossad commando, who together had formed Amida Ltd., later a CIA secret business whose cover was selling weapons, uniforms and support gear to California law enforcement agencies but which quickly became a feast of international arms dealing. McClung refined a new Diplomat poison- tipped pen-gun, and, with his deadly book-gun (a copy of The Book of the Dead that fired bullets) and always accurate laser rifle, etc., etc. (diagrams for many of the weapons are given), became the company´s chief inventor of killer ``toys.´´ Then Ibriham Haddad, fat and perfumed king of arms dealers, invaded Amida and took it over, adding his own poison to Amida´s already irredeemably corrupt juices. When Amida set up McClung to be assassinated, he hid out in the wilds for three years and abandoned dealing death downward from the top of the food chain. The rotten underbelly of US Intelligence, grippingly sliced open. Film rights sold. -- Copyright ©1991, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.
Sorry it was so long.
------------------
Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
- Joined
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Cool I better watch out then huh?
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
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Well I just placed a call and left message for John Colling. He now lives in the Lake Tahoe area with wife Alice so I hope to hear back.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
T
tek
I am confused. The MD with the tang exposed and shown in the first post of this thread - is this the knife that was used in the actual test of the 7" knives? The reason I ask is because if you compare the discolorations on the tang of this knife with the discolorations of the knife in the picture linked in mdavis's post - it is obvious they are the same knife. The picture linked in mdavis's post was posted on September 27th, 1999 - long before the 7" knife test. This would indicate one of two things:
1) The MD in the 7" knife test was tested with only half the handle in place, or
2) The knife used in the 7" knife test was not the knife shown in the first post of this thread and may not be a fake. That makes this thread an exercise in futility.
Maybe I am wrong about the two knives pictured being the same. Could someone please explain this to me!!!
Travis Kerr
1) The MD in the 7" knife test was tested with only half the handle in place, or
2) The knife used in the 7" knife test was not the knife shown in the first post of this thread and may not be a fake. That makes this thread an exercise in futility.
Maybe I am wrong about the two knives pictured being the same. Could someone please explain this to me!!!
Travis Kerr
- Joined
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Ah crap I wish I was a full-fledged DC's so I could donate my x-ray equipment for this! I think it is a fantastic idea, though, and would not be difficult at all. Almost any MaS would penetrate the handles, so unless you are trying to burn through the lead in the wall the pictures should come out plenty nice, especially if you use high speed extremity film. Anyway, here's my take on the thing...
If the Evil Elf indeed snuck a few knives from the crap-pile into the good-pile and they went through the rest of the processes for finishing, HOW would Evil Elf recognize said notched knives when they came back into the shop??? Or, did he just randomly grab the extra knives and hope he actually made out with a few good ones, hoping the bad ones would end up in the unsuspecting arms of poor MD dealers? I dunno. We have a saying in the health care professions:
If it sounds like a horse, and it smells like a horse, and it walks like a horse, then it probably ain't a zebra. I have trouble buying into the whole Maddog cult, and I've never seen one of his knives before, so I guess I can't comment there, either, but I do know that for the same prices you can get a real custom knife out of damn near any steel from damn near any maker and it will kick serious ass. You'll also have $$ left over for McDonald's on the way home from work. And maybe for a Porsche. Catch my drift?
------------------
My Custom Kydex Sheath page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/kydex.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
agocs_s@dd.palmer.edu
Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/madpoet/main.html
If the Evil Elf indeed snuck a few knives from the crap-pile into the good-pile and they went through the rest of the processes for finishing, HOW would Evil Elf recognize said notched knives when they came back into the shop??? Or, did he just randomly grab the extra knives and hope he actually made out with a few good ones, hoping the bad ones would end up in the unsuspecting arms of poor MD dealers? I dunno. We have a saying in the health care professions:
If it sounds like a horse, and it smells like a horse, and it walks like a horse, then it probably ain't a zebra. I have trouble buying into the whole Maddog cult, and I've never seen one of his knives before, so I guess I can't comment there, either, but I do know that for the same prices you can get a real custom knife out of damn near any steel from damn near any maker and it will kick serious ass. You'll also have $$ left over for McDonald's on the way home from work. And maybe for a Porsche. Catch my drift?
------------------
My Custom Kydex Sheath page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/kydex.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
agocs_s@dd.palmer.edu
Madpoet (Mel Sorg, Jr.) Tribute page:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/madpoet/main.html
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Mike,
I believe in your honesty. Always have. You are not the most logical person I know though. Why all the controversy about the Mad Dog in your test? You started the darn thread yourself! Out of 10 responses to the original test thread, only two posters expressed moderate surprise that the MD didn't do better. Hardly a storm of disproval.
Then you go and opine that a knife with a hard edge and a softer spine will snap in a vice. This is exactly the sort of heat treating that bladesmiths do in order to pass their associations tests which demand that the maker produce a knife blade that will hold an edge and take a critical bend without extreme damage to the edge.
None of which reflects on the conclusions drawn from your test at all in my opinion. To be honest, when I read that you didn't even attempt to start out all the knives with at least similarly sharpened edges, I dismissed the edge holding test completely. I honestly believe you when you conclude that the ATAK scored third behind both the Basic 7 and the Cold Steel in your test. I am sure a repeat in front of the Pope would yield the same results. I just need to judge for myself when somebody says an ATAK just can't chop with no further explanation. I don't drop my knives onto concrete floors on a daily basis, and I am not interested in an evaluation of edge holding on randomly sharpened edges.
And all this talk of X-raying Mad Dog handles is utter nonesense. Aren't there some reality based issues to discuss? Handles don't rust, break, or fall off of Mad Dog knives any more regularly than any other knife, so what's the point? It certainly has just as durable a handle as either a Busse Basic or a Cold Steel, greatly more so in my opinion.
I know the other two knives that did well are probably great knives. I know that Mad Dogs are great knives too. The knives are pretty different from each other in most ways, and any one could be the top pick based on an individual's priorities, so I really didn't find the results of the test troubling at all, personally.
[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 04 November 1999).]
I believe in your honesty. Always have. You are not the most logical person I know though. Why all the controversy about the Mad Dog in your test? You started the darn thread yourself! Out of 10 responses to the original test thread, only two posters expressed moderate surprise that the MD didn't do better. Hardly a storm of disproval.
Then you go and opine that a knife with a hard edge and a softer spine will snap in a vice. This is exactly the sort of heat treating that bladesmiths do in order to pass their associations tests which demand that the maker produce a knife blade that will hold an edge and take a critical bend without extreme damage to the edge.
None of which reflects on the conclusions drawn from your test at all in my opinion. To be honest, when I read that you didn't even attempt to start out all the knives with at least similarly sharpened edges, I dismissed the edge holding test completely. I honestly believe you when you conclude that the ATAK scored third behind both the Basic 7 and the Cold Steel in your test. I am sure a repeat in front of the Pope would yield the same results. I just need to judge for myself when somebody says an ATAK just can't chop with no further explanation. I don't drop my knives onto concrete floors on a daily basis, and I am not interested in an evaluation of edge holding on randomly sharpened edges.
And all this talk of X-raying Mad Dog handles is utter nonesense. Aren't there some reality based issues to discuss? Handles don't rust, break, or fall off of Mad Dog knives any more regularly than any other knife, so what's the point? It certainly has just as durable a handle as either a Busse Basic or a Cold Steel, greatly more so in my opinion.
I know the other two knives that did well are probably great knives. I know that Mad Dogs are great knives too. The knives are pretty different from each other in most ways, and any one could be the top pick based on an individual's priorities, so I really didn't find the results of the test troubling at all, personally.
[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 04 November 1999).]
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Chiro: in the above scenario, I presumed the blades failed heat-treat, so they would have already been ground and (badly) heat-treated, would go out of the shop only for hard chroming, and come back into the shop still sans handles, so picking the reject "notched" blades out of the shipment would be relatively easy. After that, putting on handles would seem the only major step left to "forge". And MD would be so preoccupied with grinding that he wouldn't pay much attention to matching what the Evil Elf reported against the packing slips.
Hmm, an interesting check would be to find Mr. Hard Chrome Guy, whoever that is, and inquire as to whether they had seen any blades come in from MD with notched tangs, and if so, was it just one or two, or lots of them.
I'm not saying that I buy into any of this, by the way, I only said, "I can envision a scenario whereby it could happen", playing devil's advocate to those who said it couldn't possibly have happened. And because it was fun to write a "you are MD" story. Spark has added some details surrounding the purchase of this knife that make the scenario described less plausible.
I still wanna see X-rays.
If many X-rayed knives come up notchless, but a few are notched, I figure we'd be performing a valuable service for MD, showing him exactly where the "fake" knives went, and the extent of his Evil Elf problem.
Maybe MD can start including a brochure with each new knife, listing X-ray clinics in the buyer's area, so the new owner can ensure that their new blade is 100% MadDog certified authentic
.
MartialWay: Thanks on the info about "Dark Genius". Amazon lists it as out of print, and my usual sources for used books (the search engines at ABEBooks and BookFinder) can't find any copies of it (could this be another conspiracy?). And that writeup has no mention of his part in the Roswell coverup, and his contributions to the design of the Captain Marvel Secret Decoder Ring...
Man, this new cough syrup is good stuff
------------------
Carl /\/\/\ AKTI #A000921
Think this through with me ... Let me know your mind
Wo-oah, what I want to know ... is are you kind?
-- Hunter/Garcia, "Uncle John's Band"
Hmm, an interesting check would be to find Mr. Hard Chrome Guy, whoever that is, and inquire as to whether they had seen any blades come in from MD with notched tangs, and if so, was it just one or two, or lots of them.
I'm not saying that I buy into any of this, by the way, I only said, "I can envision a scenario whereby it could happen", playing devil's advocate to those who said it couldn't possibly have happened. And because it was fun to write a "you are MD" story. Spark has added some details surrounding the purchase of this knife that make the scenario described less plausible.
I still wanna see X-rays.
If many X-rayed knives come up notchless, but a few are notched, I figure we'd be performing a valuable service for MD, showing him exactly where the "fake" knives went, and the extent of his Evil Elf problem.
Maybe MD can start including a brochure with each new knife, listing X-ray clinics in the buyer's area, so the new owner can ensure that their new blade is 100% MadDog certified authentic
MartialWay: Thanks on the info about "Dark Genius". Amazon lists it as out of print, and my usual sources for used books (the search engines at ABEBooks and BookFinder) can't find any copies of it (could this be another conspiracy?). And that writeup has no mention of his part in the Roswell coverup, and his contributions to the design of the Captain Marvel Secret Decoder Ring...
Man, this new cough syrup is good stuff
------------------
Carl /\/\/\ AKTI #A000921
Think this through with me ... Let me know your mind
Wo-oah, what I want to know ... is are you kind?
-- Hunter/Garcia, "Uncle John's Band"
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Mike :
The reason that the spine is softened is to allow greater ductility in the areas that are stress risers, ie. along the spine. As for MD's snapping violently, as long as the whole knife is supporting the strain, it will probably just bend due to the soft spine. I put a bend in the second TUSK I had and it didn't break.
The spine is also softened to promote resistance to crack formation which can lead to abrupt gross failure (ie. make the knife tougher). The softer back will absorb energy and will distort rather than fracture under extreme loads. When I struck the MD TUSK and the Ontario's with the Uluchet while using the TUSK to chop a piece out of a car roof, the Ontario's fractured badly along the spine under the impacts, the TUSK just indented slightly.
The only downside to a softer spine is that the blade becomes weaker, ie. is is easier to bend it. For example I could not snap or put a bend in the Ontario's even though I could put a bend in the TUSK because the Ontario's were stronger because of a uniform higher RC. Blades were of equal thickness, very similar grinds and lengths. The Ontario's had a lower grade steel, 1095 as opposed to the O1 in the TUSK.
Post the facts and ignore the rants/attacks etc., that kind of stuff does not reflect on you it just illustrates the character of those getting personal. What happened because of the test will happen almost every time you post negative reviews. You want to see some of the emails from makers/dealers/fans that I have recieved?
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04 November 1999).]
The reason that the spine is softened is to allow greater ductility in the areas that are stress risers, ie. along the spine. As for MD's snapping violently, as long as the whole knife is supporting the strain, it will probably just bend due to the soft spine. I put a bend in the second TUSK I had and it didn't break.
The spine is also softened to promote resistance to crack formation which can lead to abrupt gross failure (ie. make the knife tougher). The softer back will absorb energy and will distort rather than fracture under extreme loads. When I struck the MD TUSK and the Ontario's with the Uluchet while using the TUSK to chop a piece out of a car roof, the Ontario's fractured badly along the spine under the impacts, the TUSK just indented slightly.
The only downside to a softer spine is that the blade becomes weaker, ie. is is easier to bend it. For example I could not snap or put a bend in the Ontario's even though I could put a bend in the TUSK because the Ontario's were stronger because of a uniform higher RC. Blades were of equal thickness, very similar grinds and lengths. The Ontario's had a lower grade steel, 1095 as opposed to the O1 in the TUSK.
Post the facts and ignore the rants/attacks etc., that kind of stuff does not reflect on you it just illustrates the character of those getting personal. What happened because of the test will happen almost every time you post negative reviews. You want to see some of the emails from makers/dealers/fans that I have recieved?
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04 November 1999).]
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
I repeat: there was no complaint about the test from Mad Dog owners until Mike started this thread, saying that Kevin McClung had emailed some statements that Mike believed to be false. From there, as usual when driven by people who are no more objective than Mad Dog fans, the discussion has gone off on all sort of fantastic flights of imagination from wanting to X-ray Mad Dog handles to speculations about industrial espinage in the Mad Dog shop. I can only find one message in this thread that even hints that the tests were not objective, other than Mike's unsupported allegations of such from Mad Dog.
Anybody who looks back through this thread from start to end cannot help but realize that it started out with Mike calling Mad Dog a liar, and almost universally people going along with it. And here is Mike crying about all the people calling his integrity into question. What a joke. These web forums are great for mind f_cks.
Adios
[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 04 November 1999).]
Anybody who looks back through this thread from start to end cannot help but realize that it started out with Mike calling Mad Dog a liar, and almost universally people going along with it. And here is Mike crying about all the people calling his integrity into question. What a joke. These web forums are great for mind f_cks.
Adios
[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 04 November 1999).]
While no flames in my opinion, this thread has conveniently gone into conspiracy theories. I fully agree RC testing and X-ray is the best way to go. Beyond that? Well, I'll wait for the facts to come in before I formulate any opinions of my own.
Nothing personal. Once again, only asking everyone to maintain their objectivity.
Nothing personal. Once again, only asking everyone to maintain their objectivity.
Richard
BOUNCED EMAIL: I need to update my email address in my profile!
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 1,742
Ok, I get it now. The tests that Mike did clearly show why knife magazines do "pansy" reviews of knives, you know the kind where every knife shines. We all whine that we want magazines to do REAL tests of the knives, and they wont do it. You almost never see bad knife reviews. Well, Mike did what we wanted, and now there are accusations that he is not being fair. Gee, Mikes new online magazine is (according to Mike) going to have real-deal, no BS knife tests. To that we all say great. But I have a feeling when the knife magazine comes out, there will be many who will cry "foul" the first time Mike gives thier favorite knife anything less than a favorable review. I even remember when a certain knife rag gave a rave review of the Schrade Clip-Hanger. If they had come out and said what a POS it really is, would they have been attacked for starting some sort of conspiracy? Mike, I for one am VERY happy that you are gonna have REAL reviews in your magazine, and I hope you dont decide just to do fluff reviews because of this. BTW, I have seen reviews befor of MD knives having chipped edges, and Mikes review actually had many good things to say about the one he tested, so why is Kevin attacking him? Ok, end of ramble.
Steve,
If you conducted a similar type of test and performed it your way, and the results were similar. Then you posted your results, and Mad Dog emailed you telling you the knife was fake wouldn't you address that for all to know? Wouldn't you want people to know that you tested a fake Mad Dog?
I don't see how Mike did anything wrong. Seems all logical to me. The part about questioning the validity of Mad Dogs statements seem to make perfect sense also. And Mike already stated that he will test another ATAK and if the first was indeed defective, he'd admit to it and appoligize to Mclung.
Personally, I'm expecting a "non-defective" ATAK to perform the same way.
-Johnny
If you conducted a similar type of test and performed it your way, and the results were similar. Then you posted your results, and Mad Dog emailed you telling you the knife was fake wouldn't you address that for all to know? Wouldn't you want people to know that you tested a fake Mad Dog?
I don't see how Mike did anything wrong. Seems all logical to me. The part about questioning the validity of Mad Dogs statements seem to make perfect sense also. And Mike already stated that he will test another ATAK and if the first was indeed defective, he'd admit to it and appoligize to Mclung.
Personally, I'm expecting a "non-defective" ATAK to perform the same way.
-Johnny
Allen Blade
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 29, 1999
- Messages
- 498
Hello,
This would be quite Funny if it wasnt so serious, I mean lets think this through,
When I and my family were living and I was working with KEVIN McClung for like 5 months!!, and yes i was the Only one besides Kevin in his shop at that time, suposedly to be his "partner". When ever and i repeat , WHEN EVER, we had a Bad Blade,
and i mean , Bad blade grinds, off center Blade tips, Ect... we never Sent said knife out to get Chromed, put a handle on it, or continued to Finish it in any way.
What we did do was destroy it on the spot, by cutting it in half with a bandsaw, if it hadnt been heat treated,,, or if it had been
heat treated and it experianced uncorrecting
warpage, we put a cheater Pipe over the tang and snapped it in half.
All this talk about Being Scheduled for Destruction because it failed Heat treat is
pure BOLOGNA!!! For a SHop that doesnt even test for RC hardness, or use a MAGNET to test for CRITICAL TEMP prior to the QUENCH cycle, and then Quenches said blades in Room temperature Oil, any Speculation to Quality of MD`s Blades from one to the next is Just That, Speculation!! Because even Kevin Doesnt Know!!
There is no Way , I repeat no way to Tell
by looking at a blade if it recived a proper Heat treat,,That is Unless you Snap it in half and Check the Grain structure of the said Broke Blade, or do a spectral analysis on it. ie.. through a Metalurgist, but the Methods used to Heat treat your blades tell`s VOLUMES about all blades you Treat in a similar fashion.
Xraying your blades will prove interesting , because on some ATAKS i made while with Kevin, had Notches all the way around the TANG section of the Blade to act as an Anchoring device during the bonding process.
I think MIKE TURBER has been slammed by the MD camp as less than Qualified Tester , Person or whatever and i find this to be a bunch of Defecation on the MD camps side.
I have had my limited Dealings and talks with Mike and only Find him as a Person searching for the Truth amongst all the BS
shoveld his Way by the MD camp. But again this is always the case when somone doesnt agree with MD , as far as my experiances go.
I Dont Knock Kevins ability to produce a Product that cuts, or his ability to make Kydex carry products.
But come on Guys there is nothing "SECRET"
or "PROPRIETARY" about MD knives or Materials used, I should know, i lived and worked, ate, did Laundry, listened to all the secret Spy stuff, saw the Home movies, had the Pranks by AUGIE(kevins stepson) played on me with BUGS, Watched my Wife Potty Train his Daughter Heather rose McClung, and even met his Mother at one time for a weekend. I did and Lived MD knives for 5 months of my life.
And then after i Left, due to Lack of follow through with Promices of partnerships, money owed Ect... All i see is The Mystical BS
fed to those who buy into Kevins Thoughts on Knifemaking and his attacking those who appose him,,,,,,this is SAD to say the least!
As for the Book talked about,,DARK GENIUS,
yea i read the original Draft,was i impressed, NO! was it belivable, NO!
did i do a little Research on Kevins so called secret back ground,yep i sure DID,
who was my sourse, that one was easy, i asked his MOTHER!! LMAO
I mean Come on Guys,,,Kevin as a Maker who is Knowledgeable about Knives is a given ,as it is with all Makers who are Full time and make a living doing this work. If he would Just Drop the PROPRIETARY BS, Re-evaluate
his Heat treat methods to assure consistant
Quality ie... Using a magnet to test for Critical temp, Quenching in Heated oil as not to cause internal stress, Ect..and actually use a Tempering Cycle instead of just a Stress Relife. i think all problems would be Alliviated.
I apologize to the members for my Long Pontification, but the MD thing is just getting way to Pathetic. I in No way
wish to be labled a MD antagonist, although
i recived that lable the minute i told KEVIN i thought he was full of BS and left his home and shop. but then again i will accept that lable if need be, Because I know the Truth and refuse to Sit by and have Kevins Hords of Disiples Question anyone who apposes Kevins Ideaology. This has to end.
Isnt what we all strive for is Good Knives and Consistant performance in products we choose??
I feel Mike Did his test in an OPEN matter,
with Numerous knives, and reported those Results.
Did Somones Toes get stepped on,,,,no not really,,,but i think somones EGO got alittle
bruised(MD), If i was Kevin i would take this as a Learning Experiance, and possible Change Making, Heattreat methods, to assure Quality Control. AND QUIT MAKING EXCUSES!!!!!
I know i have made some Pretty major mistakes
in my past and i never got anywhere, until i Admitted i was Wrong and Took steps to change.
I happen to Like KEVIN and his family, i might not have agreed with Our past buisness dealings,,but thats buisness.
I do Feel though if you Cant Make and sell Knives with only your Skill and knowledge,
without having to Make up Extrordinary Life Testimonys and "SECRET" stuff abounding, then you must have felt Ashamed to just Make knives on there own Merits without all the " SECRET STUFF".
Anyway this wasnt meant as a personal Attack
or Flame,,,,,just simple Fact from my Standpoint.
Remember the Saying " Been there, Done that"
well Thats ME!! and i only speak about MD from what i lived and know to be true.
If i said some things People dont Agree with
, dont Blame me, as i Recived my DEGREE
on MD knives by LIVING it for 5 months.
I hope this has helped to maybe make a change in peoples Attitudes to Accepting
MD knives as what they are, JUST KNIVES!!
Thanks, Allen blade
[This message has been edited by Allen Blade (edited 04 November 1999).]
This would be quite Funny if it wasnt so serious, I mean lets think this through,
When I and my family were living and I was working with KEVIN McClung for like 5 months!!, and yes i was the Only one besides Kevin in his shop at that time, suposedly to be his "partner". When ever and i repeat , WHEN EVER, we had a Bad Blade,
and i mean , Bad blade grinds, off center Blade tips, Ect... we never Sent said knife out to get Chromed, put a handle on it, or continued to Finish it in any way.
What we did do was destroy it on the spot, by cutting it in half with a bandsaw, if it hadnt been heat treated,,, or if it had been
heat treated and it experianced uncorrecting
warpage, we put a cheater Pipe over the tang and snapped it in half.
All this talk about Being Scheduled for Destruction because it failed Heat treat is
pure BOLOGNA!!! For a SHop that doesnt even test for RC hardness, or use a MAGNET to test for CRITICAL TEMP prior to the QUENCH cycle, and then Quenches said blades in Room temperature Oil, any Speculation to Quality of MD`s Blades from one to the next is Just That, Speculation!! Because even Kevin Doesnt Know!!
There is no Way , I repeat no way to Tell
by looking at a blade if it recived a proper Heat treat,,That is Unless you Snap it in half and Check the Grain structure of the said Broke Blade, or do a spectral analysis on it. ie.. through a Metalurgist, but the Methods used to Heat treat your blades tell`s VOLUMES about all blades you Treat in a similar fashion.
Xraying your blades will prove interesting , because on some ATAKS i made while with Kevin, had Notches all the way around the TANG section of the Blade to act as an Anchoring device during the bonding process.
I think MIKE TURBER has been slammed by the MD camp as less than Qualified Tester , Person or whatever and i find this to be a bunch of Defecation on the MD camps side.
I have had my limited Dealings and talks with Mike and only Find him as a Person searching for the Truth amongst all the BS
shoveld his Way by the MD camp. But again this is always the case when somone doesnt agree with MD , as far as my experiances go.
I Dont Knock Kevins ability to produce a Product that cuts, or his ability to make Kydex carry products.
But come on Guys there is nothing "SECRET"
or "PROPRIETARY" about MD knives or Materials used, I should know, i lived and worked, ate, did Laundry, listened to all the secret Spy stuff, saw the Home movies, had the Pranks by AUGIE(kevins stepson) played on me with BUGS, Watched my Wife Potty Train his Daughter Heather rose McClung, and even met his Mother at one time for a weekend. I did and Lived MD knives for 5 months of my life.
And then after i Left, due to Lack of follow through with Promices of partnerships, money owed Ect... All i see is The Mystical BS
fed to those who buy into Kevins Thoughts on Knifemaking and his attacking those who appose him,,,,,,this is SAD to say the least!
As for the Book talked about,,DARK GENIUS,
yea i read the original Draft,was i impressed, NO! was it belivable, NO!
did i do a little Research on Kevins so called secret back ground,yep i sure DID,
who was my sourse, that one was easy, i asked his MOTHER!! LMAO
I mean Come on Guys,,,Kevin as a Maker who is Knowledgeable about Knives is a given ,as it is with all Makers who are Full time and make a living doing this work. If he would Just Drop the PROPRIETARY BS, Re-evaluate
his Heat treat methods to assure consistant
Quality ie... Using a magnet to test for Critical temp, Quenching in Heated oil as not to cause internal stress, Ect..and actually use a Tempering Cycle instead of just a Stress Relife. i think all problems would be Alliviated.
I apologize to the members for my Long Pontification, but the MD thing is just getting way to Pathetic. I in No way
wish to be labled a MD antagonist, although
i recived that lable the minute i told KEVIN i thought he was full of BS and left his home and shop. but then again i will accept that lable if need be, Because I know the Truth and refuse to Sit by and have Kevins Hords of Disiples Question anyone who apposes Kevins Ideaology. This has to end.
Isnt what we all strive for is Good Knives and Consistant performance in products we choose??
I feel Mike Did his test in an OPEN matter,
with Numerous knives, and reported those Results.
Did Somones Toes get stepped on,,,,no not really,,,but i think somones EGO got alittle
bruised(MD), If i was Kevin i would take this as a Learning Experiance, and possible Change Making, Heattreat methods, to assure Quality Control. AND QUIT MAKING EXCUSES!!!!!
I know i have made some Pretty major mistakes
in my past and i never got anywhere, until i Admitted i was Wrong and Took steps to change.
I happen to Like KEVIN and his family, i might not have agreed with Our past buisness dealings,,but thats buisness.
I do Feel though if you Cant Make and sell Knives with only your Skill and knowledge,
without having to Make up Extrordinary Life Testimonys and "SECRET" stuff abounding, then you must have felt Ashamed to just Make knives on there own Merits without all the " SECRET STUFF".
Anyway this wasnt meant as a personal Attack
or Flame,,,,,just simple Fact from my Standpoint.
Remember the Saying " Been there, Done that"
well Thats ME!! and i only speak about MD from what i lived and know to be true.
If i said some things People dont Agree with
, dont Blame me, as i Recived my DEGREE
on MD knives by LIVING it for 5 months.
I hope this has helped to maybe make a change in peoples Attitudes to Accepting
MD knives as what they are, JUST KNIVES!!
Thanks, Allen blade
[This message has been edited by Allen Blade (edited 04 November 1999).]
- Status