Update on 7" knife test concerning MAD DOG.

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 4, 1999

Good post Allen, glad Mike unbanned you.

If the blade was defective, and Mad Dog has faith in his product (very important), shouldn't he send Mike another ATAK to be tested, unless he has something to fear. If he knew he made a good product that will perform well, shouldn't he send in another knife to clear his name?

This just tells you the good makers from the bad ones. The internet has changed the way many do business and some makers, Chris Reeve, Strider Knives, Spyderco, just to name a few, really benefit and stand out above the rest. They can do this because they know they make good products, and continue to improve their products. By certain companies marketing and business stradegies, you know they will prosper.

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Johnny
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Samurai6 · Nov 4, 1999

The absurdity goes on.

Who slammed Mike Turber? I didn't. I have stood up for Mike's honesty, repeatedly. I only pointed out the illogic to some of the statements he has made. There was one other person who stated very mildly that Mike might have the appearance of being biased due to the relationship between Mike, Bladeforums, and Busse Combat, but he never came right out and said he thought Mike was dishonest. The only attack on Mike is the one Mike himself has alleged to come from Mad Dog, and which has not been made public.

Read the blinking thread. The only person who has really posted in this thread in support of Mad Dog is me. I guess that makes me the "Mad Dog camp". A rather inconsequential "Horde of Disciples", but stop me if you must. Take out my posts and there are one or two in the whole thread(we are on our third page of replies now) that do not openly ridicule Mad Dog or his knives, and yet Mike bemoans the attacks on his integrity, and Allen Blades calls for somebody to Stop the Hordes of Mad Dog Desciples!

Gawd. Group psychology is frightening.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 04 November 1999).]

Darrel Ralph · Nov 4, 1999

I dont know Mad Dog! I am not taking sides here. I just have a few things to say about the situation IMHO
62 RC is to hard for an edge with this type of steel. (O1) IT WILL CHIP OUT!!!!!!
Next. Mike is on the up and up here. If this fellow Mad Dog is on the square he will allow Mike to choose a dealer , get the knife , mark it, send it to MD for official yup thats mine and test it. If not then he dont know what the hell he's doing.

Steve Harvey has a point. Something stinks here!!!!!!! I feel that the custom should have come out on top.

It burns my ass when a custom maker makes knives that are inferior . This gives custom makers a bad rap.
Will Fennel said it right! These tests show our weakness's . Smart people make changes and improve there products. People who are in denial try to slither out and make excuses.
Maybe MD should recall all product with his dealers and check every knife at his expense to make sure there are no fakes on the shelf.
Damage control seems like the thing to do !!!!! Recall them all like a Ford Pinto . I'll bet this dont happen!!!!!!!!
:}
I feel better now..

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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 04 November 1999).]

Samurai6 · Nov 4, 1999

Hey Darrel, I'm having fun here. The Hordes of Mad Dog Desciples(me, myself, and I

) are laying seige to Mike's integrity.

I'm going to keep saying Mike is an honest guy until somebody believes me.

If you want to have a rational discussion about why a handmade, selectively heat treated knife didn't do better against a couple of production knives in Mike's test, please start another thread. Hee heee!

NamViet Vo · Nov 4, 1999

OK, I will settle this. I have a brand new Mad Dog ATAK that I will sacrifice to repeat the test. After which the handle can be X-ray or cut in half to show the tang. This ATAK came from AZ Custom Knives and was sold to me one day after its arrival from Mad Dog Knives in 1996. I have receipt for it.

Lets pick a neutral place where we can repeat the test and have some credible witnesses there also. So lets start another thread discussing where, when, what, and who will be there. I will be in Orlando for Thanksgiving, Las Vegas for Christmas, and Las Vegas again for the SHOT show. I would like to witness the test myself if possible, but it is not a requirement for me to give up my ATAK.

Mike Turber · Nov 4, 1999

Orlando it is!

Now we need some members or anyone to show up. I will bring my new 600' roll of 1" hemp rope. Wish I had it for the test

And our digital camera and hopefully someone will bring a video camera as mine is screwed. I will bring 2X4's and card board.

Start a new thread for volunteers to show up. We can go to a medical facitly and X-ray the knife too!

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!

Allen Blade · Nov 4, 1999

Hello,

I didnt mean to say anyone here Questioned Mike Turbers Testing Abilitys or Character, the only one that i have heard doing that is MD himself, as Stated by Mike Turber.

I dont Knock anyone for buying a MAD DOG knife, hey if ya like em ,then go buy them!!

As i stated above, yes i have an intimate knowledge of MAD DOG knives as it was when i was there, maybe things have changed since i was there , maybe not, Who knows.

But i do Know as a Full time Knifemaker for the past 12 almost 13 yrs that there is a Right way and a wrong way to Blade Performance and ability,

The Point is in my opinion that one should not have to make Excuses for there Knife performance if all aspects they have stated for there Expertise in making said Knives are Valid and Repeatable with each knife.

WHY not Just say " Heck i might have Screwed up on that BLADE, send it back and i will replace it with a GOOD Blade".

But then again,, who am i to Question
anyone or anything, i am just a Bald knifemaker.

But i will be sure no one comes in my shop and steals any blades from me, because i sure dont have the time to Sit and explain to them how to finish the blades they Stole from me , so they can sell them to a Dealer.

Thanks,

Allen(bald knifemaker who knows nothing )Blade

Samurai6 · Nov 4, 1999

Why? I believe Mike was honest. Who's complaining?

Mike, test the edge of the ATAK you've got with file in several places along the edge. If a new file won't cut it, it is almost certainly over 60 RcH or so. Close enough. Try it on the spine too. The file should cut at 54-56 I think. The knife is trashed already with half the handle cut away, right?

My suspicion is that the ATAK didn't cut the cardboard or chop very well because it wasn't sharp to begin with.

I've chopped through 2X4s with a Wild Thing and didn't consider it too difficult, so an ATAK has got to be at least a fair chopper for its size. The edge on the Wild Thing I used was what I consider a fighter edge, about 35 degrees included angle. I think Anthony Lombardo has that knife now, unless he has passed it along too. It didn't chip, in fact it still shaved when I got done with the first 2X4 if I remember right. I don't remember if it was still shaving sharp after the second one for sure, but it never got significantly dull.

Samurai6 · Nov 4, 1999

Anybody else besides me notice the gaps between the handle material and the tang on the Busse? Compare that with the ATAK.

NamViet Vo · Nov 4, 1999

I never did like Busse's handle from day one at the 1999 SHOT show, but you get what you paid for. I am more interest in the steel since that is the part you cut with. Most comfortable handle for my hand is, believe it or not, the Buck Nighthawk. Mad Dog's handle is very nice indeed.

Mike Turber · Nov 4, 1999

Steve,
No biggie I think everyone is referring to the thread at Mad Dog's forum. I think once all this info that is being flooded in here at the moment is verified your opinion of the Dog will change, or maybe not. Makes no difference really. I will not post any info I can not verify. Heck people, I actually called John Colling or rather a business he is associated with.

I just want the truth like all of you adn I too am tired of all this spy crap. If it is true I will apologize and in reality it has nothing to do with his knives.

Also Steve,

The gaps are there because the handle is Resiprene "C" (Fancy ass rubber with some kick ass abilities). When you cut rubber is will seperate from whatever it is attached to. I won't hold it's shape when cut. It sure as hell fells better while chopping than a Mad Dog does.

Also I was quoted on Mad Dog's forum and it is still there

Crowninghorse says.

["Further down I start loosing confidence in the MAD DOG. The taper just leaves me thinking it will fail and the glue/resin/whatever just does not envoke a confidence building thought. The Busse has a visible anchor and maybe the MAD DOG will hold but actually seeing the anchor sure helps."

As Jesus of Nazareth once said, "Blessed is he who hasn't seen and still believes..."
If someone can pull a Mad Dog ATAK blade from a Mad Dog ATAK handle, I would be interested in hearing about it...until then, let it rest.

Horse

Make sure you take pictures if you do manage to pull the handle and blade apart...video would be best...

Well Crowninghorse I am about to test your faith my friend. We made lots of phone calls today to see about all these claims. One was to SDV1 in Hawaii. This is where 12 Mad Dogs all fell apart in 3 weeks. Once I verify all of this you will then have at least one (or 12) mysterious handle failure (s) and you will then know why Kevin no longer has a contract with them.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!

Jim March · Nov 4, 1999

Mike, there has been an interesting concern raised. I noticed it and was going to write in private, and then "TEK" spotted it and posted but nobody seems to have noticed.

According to another Mike (username mdavis) Spark posted this pic in September:

For the record, Mike Turber says the cutaway-grip ATAK shown next to the Busse in same fashion is the same knife used in testing. He told me that in private EMail and I *think* he said the same thing i this thread. Not certain, too lazy to go back and study every post

.

"Mdavis" suspected the "September horizontal pic" was the same knife that Mike Turber cut away and showed next to the Busse. It most definately is. Here's that pic:

They're the same knife. Definately. Forget the notch; look at the discolorations and inconsequencial chips on the tang, they're as good as a fingerprint.

So first question is, when WAS the horizontal picture first posted? If it was in September like Mdavis claims, when did the testing actually take place?

Sorry these are hard questions but...they can't be ignored.

Jim March

Ralf · Nov 4, 1999

Mike,

dont' accept NamViet's offer for the second ATAK. Nobody should sacrifice a >$300 knife for repeating this test. Mad Dog had his chance. Of course he can deny the test results, but he has to do it with hard facts. And if he want's the test to be repeated, than let him provide a knife. Until then I take the first test as valid.

As Darrel pointed it out the knife performed as expected from the way it was made. What other proof do you need?

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 4, 1999

Steve,

I was never questioning whether or not you were taking sides or whether you were calling Mike a liar. Just that you stated that what he did, starting this thread, questioning if the ATAK truely is defective, is illogical. I don't see how it's illogical in any way. I would like to be informed if one of the knives in his test was defective, and I think he should make it known.

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Johnny
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Pleconin · Nov 4, 1999

Jim, are you talking about this?:

posted 27 September 1999 02:33 PM
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Here's a pic of a MD ATAK handle, tang and all. From what I can tell, the tang is chromed. However, there's no disputing the knife is "glued" in there.
Looks like the tang shape would make the knife an effective "ballistic" knife when the glue fails, because I dont see anything other than the glue holding it in the handle... and I'd definately be paranoid about corrosion if I was using this knife, given what we've learned about the "power" of hard chroming to resist rusting.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here

[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 27 September 1999).]

The Original Thread, with picture, is here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001832.html

The above message is the second from the last.

[This message has been edited by Pleconin (edited 04 November 1999).]

Samurai6 · Nov 4, 1999

Mike,

I've had four Mad Dog knives. I've seen how they are built, held them in my own hands, used them, know how hard the edges are. I already know what I think is good and bad about them from my own experience. I don't care if somebody documents two, twelve, or a hundred and twelve handle failures. It's meaningless to me. Mad Dog knives are getting used and tested as hard or harder than anything else out there. If some government agency (SDV1?) broke twelve Mad Dog handles, they were doing something really extreme. I had all my Mad Dogs far longer than three weeks, and the handles were as solid as new, if you get what I mean.

Lets just test the ATAK you've got with a file, and see if it passes that basic heat treatment test. If it does, maybe it would be possible to sharpen the ATAK and the CS the same and do the cardboard test over. I trust you to be honest about the test. It is just hard to design meaningful tests, especially of edge holding. I've killed a lot of cardboard and rope, and I have yet to really demonstrate a difference in edge holding between blades made of premium cutlery steel that were similarly sharpened.

As an example, I was recently evaluating a Talonite blade with a very thin edge, comparing it to a CPM420V blade with a thicker edge, while cutting rope. The CPM420V edge had toothy characteristics and bit aggressively in a slicing motion. The Talonite blade would cut efficiently if push-cut through the rope, but would slide if a slicing motion was used. If you put both knives in a jig and slid a rope over them, a person could conclude that the Talonite blade was dull, but it just had a smooth edge. It cut into wood much more aggressively than the 420V blade did.

It really would have been better to just test the ATAK further, and keep the discussion focused on the knives than to turn Kevin's observation of the tang notch into another Mad Dog bashing opportunity, 'cuz anybody who reads through this thread and counts the pro and con Mad Dog comments can tell it is not your integrity that has been getting slammed here today. You weren't even slightly insulted on the Mad Dog forum today. Ranger1 did post that he just happen to have a couple of his Mad Dog knives X-rayed recently (surprising coincidence), and none had notches in the tangs.

So, enough fun, lets do as Darrel said and get the focus back on the actual factual knives. Lets take a file to that ATAK right away and start a new thread with a new focus.

I was a little curious myself about whether the ATAK with the bisected handle and notched tang was the same one used in the test. That certainly seems to be the implication. Were these test actually done over a month ago?

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 04 November 1999).]

Walt Welch · Nov 4, 1999

Gentlemen; please. This thread is getting somewhat fractious, IMHO. Let us see if I can spread some oil on the troubled waters.

I consider myself to be a friend of Mike Turber, although I have never met him in person. I trust his judgement and integrity. Thus, I do not think he would 'rig' a test.

In fact, after this 7" test occured, I spoke to Mike, and offered him a Kit Carson U-2 Dive Knive, made of Talonite, for his testing. He mentions this in a previous post on this thread, but mistakenly thinks that the knife was made by Rob Simonich. I am going to send this knife to Mike to test. So, I trust Mike Turber to run a fair test. With a $500 knife, the only one of its' kind in existence.

The question in everyone's mind is: was the ATAK used in the test a representative sample, i.e. a genuine Mad Dog. There have been lots of theories and much speculation about this. I decided to put the knives to the test. Thanks to my local vet, Dr. John Gallagher, DVM, of Oak Tree Animal Hospital, Danville, CA, (925) 837-1632, I have x-rayed the following knives, in this order on the X-ray (this is meant for you, Mike, so the x-ray is unambiguous):

1- Seal ATAK, marked, 'MAD DOG / S.E.A.L./A.T.A.K./ A936'. This knife was purchased from a poster. Black coated. From Seal production (began at A500)

2-Seal ATAK, marked, 'MAD DOG/S.E.A.L./A.T.A.K./A605' (laser stencil). This knife was purchased from the late William James MacPherson, who served with the 101st. Airborne in Vietnam, and was a poster. He bought the knife new. Black coated.

3-Seal ATAK, marked 'MAD DOG/SEAL ATAK2' (laser stencil). Matte grey chrome finish;near vertical choil taper (taper at spine and edge nearly the same distance from handle). First gen. Source ?

4-Seal Atak, marked 'Mad Dog'(laser stencil). Bright chrome finish and 'diagonal' choil taper; it extends considerably farther out on the spine than the edge, so appears diagonal when viewed from the side. Second generation. Source: can't remember.

5-Voodoo Child, marked, 'Mad Dog'(laser stencil). Matte chrome finish, diagonal choil (as number 4), current production, third generation. Presented by Teryl and Kevin to me in appreciation of my support of KNIFEGNUGEN at KN'99.

6-AZ Hunter, 1/4",marked 'Mad Dog' (laser stencil) matte chrome finish, vertical choil taper, first gen.

7-Shrike, marked, 'Mad Dog', but in electric pencil. Bright chrome, diagonal taper, second generation. Source: poster

8- Wild Thing, marked, 'Mad Dog' (l.s.). Bright chrome, diagonal taper, second gen. Source: poster

9- Mini Shrike, 3/16", marked, 'Mad Dog' (l.s.). Bright chrome, diagonal taper, second gen., bought from Kevin at KN '98. My first MD knife!

10-Baby Mako2, marked 'Mad Dog' (l.s.). Matte chrome, current production (third gen). Bought from Scott Moore of Moore Knives: mooreknive@aol.com at KN '99.

11-Pygmy ATAK, marked 'Mad Dog' in electric pencil. Bright chrome, diagonal taper, second gen. Bought from dealer, NWC, if I recall correctly: www.nwcutlery.com/

12-Pygmy ATAK2, bright chrome, diagonal taper, second gen., bought from Tim Lau of Street Pro: www.streetpro.com/, IIRC. Could have #11 and 12 sources mixed up. Both good dealers and good people.

As you can see from the sources of these knives, I buy from anybody! Posters, dealers, I even buy from Kevin himself! So, if anyone has been exposed to knock-offs, it is me, as a significant number of knives have been bought used through posts in the knives for sale section of the forums.

OK, now for the data for which you have all been waiting: there are absolutely no notches on any of the tangs. Period. Zip. Nada. Notches? we don't need any stinkin' notches.

It would seem, although the sample size is small, an even dozen, that the ATAK Mike Turber tested is an anomoly, possibly not a genuine Mad Dog. Here is what I propose:

Mike; when I send you the Kit Carson Talonite Knife for testing, I will toss in your choice of ATAKs, either #3 or #4, although I suggest #4 as being closer to current production. #1 and #2 are rarities, and have file work on the spine, since they are not differentially tempered (due to the sharpened false edge). For these reasons, they are even more different than current production, and less suitable for testing. I will send you the x-ray when I send you the knives.

What do you say? Here is your chance to perform your testing as you intended, with a genuine Mad Dog ATAK, although it must be an ATAK2, as I have no non serrated ATAKS; however, since you only use a specific and different section of the blade for each test, this should not be a problem; just don't use the serrated section.

I await your decision, hoping that my proposal meets with your approval.

Walt (the guy with a foot in each camp; only recently have I appreciated how this position leaves my er, ah, groin exposed!)

Walt Welch · Nov 4, 1999

Sorry, double post. While I am here, however, I can provide the details of the x-ray machine settings: 70 KV, 1/60 sec., 300 MA. Just in case other people feel like 'raying dogs. Walt

[This message has been edited by Walt Welch (edited 04 November 1999).]

armlok · Nov 4, 1999

YOU DA MAN, DOC!!!! Er but lets leave your groin and pale "haole" legs out of the discussion before you get banned again

ARMLOK

mdavis · Nov 4, 1999

hi there jim,
the name is actually matt, not mike,
but what's in a name

.
when this thread first started i noticed the similarity between the two knives, it just took me a minute to find sparks post.
i've been wondering why no one replied.
i felt like such a nowhere man!

i enjoy this as much as the next guy,
and the more details the better.
so?
-matt

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-matt

"you see that mountain over there? near as i can figure, that's where we are!"

[This message has been edited by mdavis (edited 04 November 1999).]