When it's not exactly Made in the USA - Hoback

[3D Anvil]

Sure. I hear you. It's completely reasonable to believe that in all the years he has been dealing with these numerous vendors that it never arose that a number of the knives purportedly derived from his shop were in fact being imported from China. Never. Once.

I mean, why would it even be germane to raise the issue at all? It's a mere detail. A trifling. (Certainly there would be no intention to deceive. And certainly no profit motive.)

Because no maker, company or business would ever approach a vendor and discuss a new line of high quality production or mid-tech knives produced off-shore which could be offered to the public at prices lower than custom, while still maintaining custom like quality. Nope, that would never happen.

So yeah. I'm convinced.

Congratulations.

So you're assuming that they asked him where his knives were made and he lied about it, is that right? If so, why haven't any of the dealers made that accusation? I mean, several of them have posted in this thread. Wouldn't that have been germane? But what they *actually* said was that they just assumed the knives were USA made.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Nope, it's not my theory. It's just one possible explanation, because unlike most of y'all, I'm not prepared to assume the absolute, most damning explanation for every possible unknown. Because I really have no idea how detailed Customs is in their inspections. I mean, if there's an industrial container full to the brim, how many of the individual boxes do they open to check if each box inside of the box is properly labeled with COO? If I had to guess, I would guess, "not many."

Instead you insist on stretching the absolute bounds of credulity by insisting that rather than the very simple answer of dishonesty that Mr. Hoback is simultaneously the most unlucky man in the universe as well as being wildly incompetent and too cowardly to speak up about an error he knows is ongoing.

 

[3D Anvil]

3D Anvil so taking everything that's come to light into account, the video admitting he knew the knives were being sold as usa made and refused to come clean because of fear of blowback, the subsequent deletion of everything within a year, the negligence of being forthcoming with where his knives are made, all of that, isn't adding up to a liar?

I just don't like to throw that term around as lightly as you do. If he SAID that his knives were all made in the US, then I would happily call him a liar. I would say that his failure to advertise COO, and his failure to correct his dealers, was deceptive and a bit shady.

 

[Triton]

I've yet to hear any explanation, other than he apparently took down a video so it must mean something bad

Let's try this again. An embattled maker (or importer) who has suddenly found himself in hot water for misrepresenting his products suddenly starts removing data from his social media platforms. If one may become party to a lawsuit, one might attempt to remove evidence before said lawsuit happens. Is that the only explanation? Of course not. It could be that Russian Hackers commissioned by Shirogov are getting rid of his stuff. Maybe he just randomly starts deleting stuff every 5 years. Maybe it's aliens. However, considering the current climate it's certainly not an implausible explanation.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

So you're assuming that they asked him where his knives were made and he lied about it, is that right? If so, why haven't any of the dealers made that accusation? I mean, several of them have posted in this thread. Wouldn't that have been germane? But what they *actually* said was that they just assumed the knives were USA made.

Why didn't they post a serious accusation of dishonesty that could have an effect on any ongoing legal options they might take on an open forum? I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't.

 

[Boru13]

But what they *actually* said was that they just assumed the knives were USA made.

And now many dealers have changed the COO... just more assumption on their part?

 

[3D Anvil]

Let's try this again. An embattled maker (or importer) who has suddenly found himself in hot water for misrepresenting his products suddenly starts removing data from his social media platforms. If one may become party to a lawsuit, one might attempt to remove evidence before said lawsuit happens. Is that the only explanation? Of course not. It could be that Russian Hackers commissioned by Shirogov are getting rid of his stuff. Maybe he just randomly starts deleting stuff every 5 years. Maybe it's aliens. However, considering the current climate it's certainly not an implausible explanation.

Or it could be, "hey, my whole livelihood -- my means of supporting my family -- is suddenly in jeopardy over this thing. Maybe instead of flying off the handle, I should cool out for a bit and give it more thought?"

 

[3D Anvil]

Why didn't they post a serious accusation of dishonesty that could have an effect on any ongoing legal options they might take on an open forum? I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't.

But they did exactly that when they accused him of implicitly, but not *explicitly* deceiving them. I think that, if he had explicitly lied to them, then they for damned sure would have said so. But that's just my assumption.

 

[Blues]

So you're assuming that they asked him where his knives were made and he lied about it, is that right? If so, why haven't any of the dealers made that accusation? I mean, several of them have posted in this thread. Wouldn't that have been germane? But what they *actually* said was that they just assumed the knives were USA made.

I haven't heard from all the dealers, but I hope you can get depositions from them and post them here. Would make interesting reading.

I'm being sarcastic because of your repeated failure to entertain anything other than "seeing everything in the best light" for your client.

Now, if you asked me if I thought, (based upon the "evidence" proffered here), that this would be sufficient in a criminal matter for a jury to render a guilty verdict beyond a reasonable doubt? No, I would never ask the prosecutor to even attempt it...and he'd be foolish to do so.

Do I believe that there is sufficient evidence for a civil trial (and verdict) based upon a preponderance of the evidence? I'm pretty close to thinking there's a case to be made there...and let's face it...that's what this is ultimately all about. There's a lot of potential dollars at stake here, to my thinking.

As I say, I've no vested interest...I simply hope justice prevails.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

But they did exactly that when they accused him of implicitly, but not *explicitly* deceiving them. I think that, if he had explicitly lied to them, then they for damned sure would have said so. But that's just my assumption.

You're an attorney and you think publicly saying, "We didn't know," and, "this man lied to us," are approximately equivalent statements?

 

[Triton]

Or it could be, "hey, my whole livelihood -- my means of supporting my family -- is suddenly in jeopardy over this thing. Maybe instead of flying off the handle, I should cool out for a bit and give it more thought?"

It's a bit late for that. I would say that the brand is irreparably damaged. He may still have some loyal fanbase after all Strider kept trundling along for years and so does Survive but the damage has been done. I suspect (and it's only a suspicion but not I think an unfounded one) that his initial thought was to come clean and hope that the whole thing would blow over. However, when dealers starting mentioning things like devaluation of existing inventory it's not a large leap to go from there to realizing that he is a potential target for lawsuits. Those dealers may very well want to be made whole. Videos or postings including apologies and details of what gets made where could be considered admissions of guilt.

 

[Triton]

But they did exactly that when they accused him of implicitly, but not *explicitly* deceiving them. I think that, if he had explicitly lied to them, then they for damned sure would have said so. But that's just my assumption.

I wouldn't. If I were a dealer I wouldn't have posted anything at all on a public forum. I would however be talking to an attorney about what my possible courses of action might be with respect to claiming damages in a possible fraud case.

 

[Blues]

And it will look all the worse, if it comes to a trial, that those disclosures made on the internet were removed since it will appear self-serving in the extreme...imho, of course.

(And since nothing on the web is ever truly gone.)

 

[3D Anvil]

I haven't heard from all the dealers, but I hope you can get depositions from them and post it here.

I'm being sarcastic because of your repeated failure to entertain anything other than "seeing everything in the best light" for your client.

Now, if you asked me if I thought, (based upon the "evidence" proffered here), that this would be sufficient in a criminal matter for a jury to render a guilty verdict beyond a reasonable doubt? No, I would never ask the prosecutor to even attempt it...and he'd be foolish to do so.

Do I believe that there is sufficient evidence for a civil trial (and verdict) based upon a preponderance of the evidence? I'm pretty close to thinking there's a case to be made there...and let's face it...that's what this is ultimately all about. There's a lot of potential dollars at stake here, to my thinking.

As I say, I've no vested interest...I simply hope justice prevails.

I can't deny a tendency to be the zealous advocate -- particularly when lynch mob is heading up the street with tiki torches and a long rope.

Legally, I think he could be in trouble for failing to label his boxes. Whether that was intentional or through ignorance I can't say. Folks don't seem to consider that this isn't a particularly sophisticated individual, outside of his expertise in building knives. I believe he has like, ONE full time employee and a collection of part timers. He doesn't have legal and accounting departments advising him on this stuff, as far as I know. Now, he *should have* consulted with experts when he decided to start producing overseas, but I suspect he didn't. If it turns out he did, and he intentionally disregarded legal requirements, then the hell with him.

 

[3D Anvil]

I wouldn't. If I were a dealer I wouldn't have posted anything at all on a public forum. I would however be talking to an attorney about what my possible courses of action might be with respect to claiming damages in a possible fraud case.

Me too, but like I said, they have already commented on the situation.

 

[Knives&Lint]

We aren’t “defending” Hoback… I don’t know how to be clearer about that. We just aren’t assigning 100% of the responsibility to him.

Do you not agree though, that he, as the leader of a company (one bearing his own name no less), should feel obliged to take 100% of the responsibility?

But they did exactly that when they accused him of implicitly, but not *explicitly* deceiving them. I think that, if he had explicitly lied to them, then they for damned sure would have said so. But that's just my assumption.

Likewise, If he had not been at least somewhat deceitful in his communications with them, would he not have come out and let us know that he was abundantly clear with them in regards to COO?

 

[3D Anvil]

Likewise, If he had not been at least somewhat deceitful in his communications with them, would he not have come out and let us know that he was abundantly clear with them in regards to COO?

He said quite clearly that he told the first vendor who mislabeled the COO that they were mistaken. In fact he said he brought it up with them more than once. Where he admits he failed was in dropping it after they didn't respond, and in not pursuing it with every vendor.

 

[shinyedges]

He said quite clearly that he told the first vendor who mislabeled the COO that they were mistaken. In fact he said he brought it up with them more than once. Where he admits he failed was in dropping it after they didn't respond, and in not pursuing it with every vendor.

So he claims. As of now the vendors that have chimed in said that they were never contacted. Which dealer did he supposedly say that to?

 

[Pàdruig]

Which dealer to he supposedly say that to?

I was just going to ask this.

This is a point that keeps getting brought up. He told one dealer…. Which dealer? And can that dealer confirm it?

Without that info, it’s simply hearsay from the lips of a guy whose honesty is already in question. And in the long run, why does it matter? One dealer - out of 28?

 

[King of the Cheese]

Do you not agree though, that he, as the leader of a company (one bearing his own name no less), should feel obliged to take 100% of the responsibility?

No.