When it's not exactly Made in the USA - Hoback

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3D Anvil said:
He said quite clearly that he told the first vendor who mislabeled the COO that they were mistaken. In fact he said he brought it up with them more than once. Where he admits he failed was in dropping it after they didn't respond, and in not pursuing it with every vendor.
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Why do you believe him?

Didn't you earlier say it was convenient that the video that Shiny Edges referred to wasn't there?

Do you find it convenient that the video you're referring to isn't there?
 
3D Anvil said:
I can't deny a tendency to be the zealous advocate -- particularly when lynch mob is heading up the street with tiki torches and a long rope.

Legally, I think he could be in trouble for failing to label his boxes. Whether that was intentional or through ignorance I can't say. Folks don't seem to consider that this isn't a particularly sophisticated individual, outside of his expertise in building knives. I believe he has like, ONE full time employee and a collection of part timers. He doesn't have legal and accounting departments advising him on this stuff, as far as I know. Now, he *should have* consulted with experts when he decided to start producing overseas, but I suspect he didn't. If it turns out he did, and he intentionally disregarded legal requirements, then the hell with him.
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Finally...we find some common ground.

(Not that I accept that is necessarily how things went...but that I can appreciate the view through the lens you are offering.)

The degrees to which his actions are more or less culpable will certainly matter...but I think more so in a criminal case. In a civil case, I think it will be more a question of how much his actions have damaged the plaintiffs, even if sufficient mens rea was not present to prove criminal charges.

But now, we're leaving my lane. I'm not a lawyer, but I've held many a prosecutor's hand at trial.
 
Pàdruig said:
I was just going to ask this.

This is a point that keeps getting brought up. He told one dealer…. Which dealer? And can that dealer confirm it?

Without that info, it’s simply hearsay from the lips of a guy whose honesty is already in question. And in the long run, why does it matter? One dealer - out of 28?
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Given the plethora of questionable things in this, I don't find it unreasonable to question whether he told ANY one. The only evidence so far is actually the exact opposite, with the 3 dealers who have spoken here.
 
Pàdruig said:
I was just going to ask this.

This is a point that keeps getting brought up. He told one dealer…. Which dealer? And can that dealer confirm it?

Without that info, it’s simply hearsay from the lips of a guy whose honesty is already in question. And in the long run, why does it matter? One dealer - out of 28?
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Right? As soon as he found out about that, he should have immediately been checking every one of his dealers and contacting them, at the very least.
 
Blues said:
Finally...we find some common ground.

(Not that I accept that is necessarily how things went...but that I can appreciate the view through the lens you are offering.)

The degrees to which his actions are more or less culpable will certainly matter...but I think more so in a criminal case. In a civil case, I think it will be more a question of how much his actions have damaged the plaintiffs, even if sufficient mens rea was not present to prove criminal charges.

But now, we're leaving my lane. I'm not a lawyer, but I've held many a prosecutor's hand at trial.
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I can't imagine that individual buyers would sue, but I guess you could have a class action. As far as the dealers, that would be a tough case, IMO, unless they could establish that he explicitly lied to them. I think the reasonable course, if the manufacturer hasn't made any representation, is to either *ask* the manufacturer or else don't list a COO at all. It's not like the vendors have to say what the COO is. Flip through Amazon and try to find where products they're selling are made, for example.

Be hard to prove damages, too.
 
3D Anvil said:
I can't deny a tendency to be the zealous advocate -- particularly when lynch mob is heading up the street with tiki torches and a long rope.

Legally, I think he could be in trouble for failing to label his boxes. Whether that was intentional or through ignorance I can't say. Folks don't seem to consider that this isn't a particularly sophisticated individual, outside of his expertise in building knives. I believe he has like, ONE full time employee and a collection of part timers. He doesn't have legal and accounting departments advising him on this stuff, as far as I know. Now, he *should have* consulted with experts when he decided to start producing overseas, but I suspect he didn't. If it turns out he did, and he intentionally disregarded legal requirements, then the hell with him.
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I'll be blunt, I think that's bullshit. Not that he may not have known all the legalities, but it's impossible to be a member of the knife community and not to realize that a different COO can change perception, pricing and attachment to your product a huge amount. There's absolutely no question that he was fully aware that he was benefiting from the fact that dealers were reporting his goods as Made in America and, knowing that, chose not to make a concerted effort to inform them of their mistake. Do you seriously believe that if it had gone the other way and they were erroneously reporting his American made models as being Made in China that he wouldn't have immediately moved Heaven and Earth to correct those mistakes? Even by the most generous interpretation possible, he knew what was happening, knew that it was beneficial to him and made absolutely minimal effort to do anything to put a stop to it.
 
Blackfish775 said:
Why do you believe him?

Didn't you earlier say it was convenient that the video that Shiny Edges referred to wasn't there?

Do you find it convenient that the video you're referring to isn't there?
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I don't remember the name of the vendor he mentioned, but he did mention one and it could be verified -- or contradicted by them. That's why I believe him. He concedes that he didn't pursue it with other vendors, so the fact that they deny him bringing it up doesn't contradict his explanation. They also don't claim that he told them his knives are made in the USA.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
I'll be blunt, I think that's bullshit. Not that he may not have known all the legalities, but it's impossible to be a member of the knife community and not to realize that a different COO can change perception, pricing and attachment to your product a huge amount. There's absolutely no question that he was fully aware that he was benefiting from the fact that dealers were reporting his goods as Made in America and, knowing that, chose not to make a concerted effort to inform them of their mistake. Do you seriously believe that if it had gone the other way and they were erroneously reporting his American made models as being Made in China that he wouldn't have immediately moved Heaven and Earth to correct those mistakes? Even by the most generous interpretation possible, he knew what was happening, knew that it was beneficial to him and made absolutely minimal effort to do anything to put a stop to it.
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That is the exact reason for "fearing blowback".
 
3D Anvil said:
I don't remember the name of the vendor he mentioned, but he did mention one and it could be verified -- or contradicted by them. That's why I believe him. He concedes that he didn't pursue it with other vendors, so the fact that they deny him bringing it up doesn't contradict his explanation. They also don't claim that he told them his knives are made in the USA.
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No he did not mention a vendor. I screen recorded it 😀
 
3D Anvil said:
I can't imagine that individual buyers would sue, but I guess you could have a class action. As far as the dealers, that would be a tough case, IMO, unless they could establish that he explicitly lied to them. I think the reasonable course, if the manufacturer hasn't made any representation, is to either *ask* the manufacturer or else don't list a COO at all. It's not like the vendors have to say what the COO is. Flip through Amazon and try to find where products they're selling are made, for example.

Be hard to prove damages, too.
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We'd better quit now before people start thinking we're in cahoots.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
I'll be blunt, I think that's bullshit. Not that he may not have known all the legalities, but it's impossible to be a member of the knife community and not to realize that a different COO can change perception, pricing and attachment to your product a huge amount. There's absolutely no question that he was fully aware that he was benefiting from the fact that dealers were reporting his goods as Made in America and, knowing that, chose not to make a concerted effort to inform them of their mistake. Do you seriously believe that if it had gone the other way and they were erroneously reporting his American made models as being Made in China that he wouldn't have immediately moved Heaven and Earth to correct those mistakes? Even by the most generous interpretation possible, he knew what was happening, knew that it was beneficial to him and made absolutely minimal effort to do anything to put a stop to it.
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shinyedges said:
No he did not mention a vendor. I screen recorded it 😀
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Yes, he did, but he kind of mumbled the name and I'm not sure what he said. It's around the 2:44 mark here:
 
3D Anvil said:
Yes, he did, but he kind of mumbled the name and I'm not sure what he said. It's around the 2:44 mark here:
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I thought we were discussing his apology video. When he said he contacted them to correct them. Who did he name?
 
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