Work Sharp (belt grinder) Knife Sharpener

UnknownVT said:
Let me pose these two simple questions:

1) can we agree that handmade/custom knife makers probably have a lot more skill than anyone who has posted on the many Work Sharp threads?
I am not too sure that any custom knife maker of repute actually makes their knives freehand.
So are we really elevating ourselves with just a few weeks' worth of Work Sharp experience
to a skill level that's higher than custom knife makers?

2) freehand probably can be accomplished much easier and better with a wider belt and an open belt grinder
- places like Harbor Freight (and others) have plain belt grinders for as low as $30 - some even with variable speeds
- so why even bother with the Work Sharp if doing freehand?
Click to expand...

1) Knife makers have mad skills, yes. But I would venture that virtually ALL custom/handmade knifemakers grind freehand. Knifemakers, feel free to jump in.
Remember that skill is not an integer, black or white. It is a continuum and I would argue that you can fairly quickly get to, say 75%* of the knifemaker skill level. It is the other 25% of skill level that elevates the custom knifemakers. And that is a steep slope. Also remember that we are not grinding blades from blanks or forged-to-shape pieces. We are only working on the edges, so that 75% can be entirely sufficient for our needs.

2) There are certainly cheaper belt systems. Some not as well made. What I would say is that the 1/2" belt is more forgiving to the newbie than a wider belt. Easier to work on recurves for example. The downside is that there are many fewer square inches of belt on the WS, but I am not worried about the economics in the same way as a pro knifemaker. I just want sharp knives. Most importantly, though is that I can keep the WS in a box in the closet and whip it out on the kitchen table and sharpen up a few knives in minutes rather than going to the basement or wherever to use a bigger system.

*The 75% figure is somewhat arbitrary and probably not worth getting into a big discussion unless someone feels like it is really only 25%

Just my .02
 
Ben B said:
*The 75% figure is somewhat arbitrary and probably not worth getting into a big discussion unless someone feels like it is really only 25%
Just my .02
Click to expand...

Very cool (good to hear another viewpoint) -

I believe knifemakers use "templates" - various guides - visual or mechanical -
some even use CNC machinery (Chris Reeve is a very good example) -
that's why they can make the same model(s) with good consistency and repeatability -
they are not making knives totally freehand,
and they certainly do not have problems grinding off tips.

As you seem to be an expert -
be grateful if you can please give us detailed instructions on how to use the WSKTS freehand -
in a clear foolproof way, please - that clearly shows it's better than using a guide.
Thanks.

--
Vincent

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"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."

If the guide works fine then there's no reason to try to fix something that's not broken. However, as backwards as it may sound, some have better luck with freehand methods as opposed to the "foolproof" methods of guided systems(Sharpmaker, Edge Pro, etc.). That being said, I do heartily recommend that people practice using the Worksharp freehand just to see if it works better for them.

As for the why, I might very well be using a full size belt sander if I had a place to put it. The worksharp easily takes up only 1/3 of the space of other bulky and heavy machines including my bench grinder, and I suspect the same goes to a belt sander(judging from the pictures anyway).
 
Noctis3880 said:
As for the why, I might very well be using a full size belt sander if I had a place to put it. The worksharp easily takes up only 1/3 of the space of other bulky and heavy machines including my bench grinder, and I suspect the same goes to a belt sander(judging from the pictures anyway).
Click to expand...

Harbor Freight has a 1/2" belt sander for $38 (often on sale for $30) - I don't think it's that much bigger than the WSKTS
" 1/2'' W x 5'' L sanding area
Overall dimensions: 11'' L x 4-1/2'' H x 3'' W, 18-1/4'' L with sanding head fully extended "

Hope that helps.....

--
Vincent

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UnknownVT said:
Harbor Freight has a 1/2" belt sander for $38 (often on sale for $30) - I don't think it's that much bigger than the WSKTS
" 1/2'' W x 5'' L sanding area
Overall dimensions: 11'' L x 4-1/2'' H x 3'' W, 18-1/4'' L with sanding head fully extended "

Hope that helps.....

--
Vincent

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Click to expand...
Is that intended to be used like the Worksharp? Without a hand to hold it down to a surface? Because nothing in the pictures would indicate its capable of standing upright, and the description seems to indicate that it's meant to be held in the hand while in operation.

As well, I don't think the lower cost justifies having to swap the belts out with a screwdriver.

I've also heard that while Harbor Freight products are a good price, their quality is a bit spotty.
 
Noctis3880 said:
As well, I don't think the lower cost justifies having to swap the belts out with a screwdriver.
Click to expand...

I don't think the thing they call a screw that holds the cover in place actually needs a screwdriver -
it looks more like a knob.

There are various positions for the sanding belt - I am not claiming it's ideal
but it does not seem too hard to hold the sander (upside down from normal) on a stable surface to use -
(eg: I hold the WSKTS with one hand to operate the momentary on (hold for on) switch)
and it would not be too hard to find some way to mount the sander for a no holding operation -
eg: if one already has some clamps, or like I already have a Black & Decker WorkMate ShopBox bought years ago -
although I grant you someone thinks it's worth $3,500! :eek:

OR (only just thought of this) -
clamp the blade in place and use the sander in hand?


EDIT to ADD -

It would seem that some have built up quite bit of expertise using the WSKTS -
it would be great if you'd please share some of your hints/tips in using the WSKTS -
hopefully with details and/or instructions?

Thanks,

--
Vincent

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Just sayin', the Worksharp is already great for knives and the like. I'll use the guides if I'm sharpening scissors or a gut hook, but I typically prefer 15 degrees per side for some of my harder steels.

And I did put a tree-topping edge on my R.J. Martin Overkill in S110V in about 6-8 minutes, so I'd say it works swell:thumbup:.

I really don't have much more expertise in using the Worksharp, I've just logged more time sharpening than some. I've also made more mistakes, ground off more thumbstuds and handle material than others. I've also worked my way around to sharpening my katanas and machetes, and somehow I figure the guide might not mesh too well with those.
 
Ben B said:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ner?p=8644911&highlight=prop+case#post8644911
There's a lot of good info in this long thread...
Click to expand...

Thank you very much that's a great hint elevating the feet at the handle side by just over a CD case to get 15 deg - then keeping the blade straight up and down/vertical.... kind of guided freehand -
that ought to work whether the outdoor guide is in place or not (for one bevel), and leaning the blade face against the guide should get about 20deg (ie: the same as the WSKTS on the level, and blade held straight up and down/vertical).

BUT I'm pretty sure the CD case trick doesn't quite work on the side away from the handle - it is pretty unstable, and my protractor shows an angle that's greater than 15deg - so I need to figure out how much to elevate the opposite side and how to make the WSKTS more stable.

So this is a case when elevating one side - where one has to remove the guide to be able to use the WSKTS the left-handed way to hone/grind the other bevel/side.

Thanks,

--
Vincent

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UnknownVT said:
How do you measure your 15deg please?

--
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Click to expand...
I confess that I don't know for sure, but I'm not really that focused on precise angles in any case. I mostly eye it and sharpen my knives so that the edge bevel is at an appropriate thickness. Which is the right way to go I suppose, because thicker blades will need a more obtuse bevel or else the edge bevel will be more than 1/4" thick and look like a scandi grind. Not sure if anyone noticed that on the ZT 0551, that thing is thicker than my ZT 0301.

Still, I know Benchmade knives come in around 25 degrees per side, and I figure so long as my edge angles come in around 15-20 degrees per side, it will do well enough in a pocket knife.

For the most part, I put the knife in the guide and more or less have a picture of how the knife should be tilted in order to get a 20 degree angle.
 
Noctis3880 said:
I confess that I don't know for sure, but I'm not really that focused on precise angles in any case.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I am a little @nal about this I have found that a good consistent angle helps to have the knife sharp the full length - (EDIT to ADD - perhaps I should be a little clearer about this - it is not the precise angle per se that I am concerned about - but to have the same consistent angle throughout the length of the blade if possible - although obviously if one is aiming for 15deg I would accept 16 even 17deg, but 20deg? it's kind of like wishful thinking - it is hard to see/judge the difference between 15deg and 20 deg without some kind of a reference)

with the Work Sharp it is easy to get consistent and almost precise 25deg with the outdoor guide -
20 deg by holding the blade straight up and down/vertical
and by eye dividing the difference between the two to get 22.5deg -
that's why I use the guide.

Ben B just gave a pretty precise way of getting 15 deg albeit on one side only
- which means one has to use the Work Sharp "left-handed" without the guide.

So I now know how to get consistent and reasonably precise 25, 20, 22.5 and 15 deg with reasonably good confidence.

--
Vincent

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I don't have much issues cutting(not splitting, but cutting all the way through) hair from heel to tip. I find the flexibility of the belt makes it very forgiving considering it's one form of freehand.
 
Noctis3880 said:
I don't have much issues cutting(not splitting, but cutting all the way through) hair from heel to tip. I find the flexibility of the belt makes it very forgiving considering it's one form of freehand.
Click to expand...

The "secret" is consistency -
a good steady hand with good eye can deliver the required consistency.

I use the guide as more of a visual guide and it boosts confidence
as I can see whether I am being inconsistent.

But like everything -
each to their own -
there's a lot to be said for using the guide -
and there's a lot to be said for doing things freehand.

I think one of the major selling points of the WSKTS is that it has guides to help those who may not be as skilled as some.

--
Vincent

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WS_JYD_Canton.jpg

had to work a bit more on the Kershaw JunkYard Dog - did the blade straight up-down/vertical 20deg thing - but found that one side only ground the shoulder and didn't even reach the edge - so the original bevel or perhaps the blade face was not symmetrical - so used the P80 grit to re-profile that one side only until the bevels looks about the same/symmetrical - then finished off with P220 and 6000 grit belts.

WS_JYD_CantonBld.jpg

The Hanwei Canton knife is in ATS-34 and custom made for me by Paul Chen of CAS Hanwei.

Details of JYD edge at about 5.33x life-size for PC monitors @ 96dpi or about 7.1x on Mac monitors @72dpi.

WS_JYD1.jpg


WS_JYD2.jpg


--
Vincent

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Nice work, Vincent. Those P80 belts can really come in handy for something like this.

Andrew
 
AFAustin said:
Nice work, Vincent. Those P80 belts can really come in handy for something like this.
Click to expand...

Thanks Andrew.

It was weird when using the Work Sharp on that JunkYard Dog - I could feel the burr almost immediately with the P220 but still did 3 passes each side before going on to the 6000 grit.

Although the blade was sharp it didn't feel quite as sharp as I was hoping - as the steel is Sandvik 13C26 (this was the earlier version/first production - before the switch to the Kershaw Sandvik special) - which is a well reputed razor steel.

That's when I examined the edge under a 30x illuminated pocket microscope and was shocked to see one side had only ground off the shoulder between the edge bevel and blade face and hadn't even reached the edge - so that one side had the original more obtuse bevel while the other side had the 20deg convex.

So I bit the bullet and ground with the coarser P80 belt on that one side only until I actually got to the edge (felt the burr) - then a bit more until the convex bevels kind of looked even/symmetrical - then finished off with the P220 - balanced the other side with a couple of passes on the P220 to knock off the burr then finally finished with the 6000 grit.

Pretty happy with the final result - although why the blade was asymmetrical is still a mystery -
as it is not that hard to hold a blade straight up & down/vertical -
since I do that all the time with a V-hone crock sticks.

--
Vincent

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Excellent. Those lighted magnifiers/loupes also come in very handy. Sorry for going a bit OT here, but what model is your 30x one and where did you get it, if I may ask? I've been happy with my 15x lighted loupe from Lee Valley, but I'm always curious about others.

Vincent, you certainly have shown that great results are possible with just the "standard" belts. Are you planning to also get some of the in-between grit belts?

Andrew
 
AFAustin said:
what model is your 30x one and where did you get it, if I may ask?
Vincent, you certainly have shown that great results are possible with just the "standard" belts. Are you planning to also get some of the in-between grit belts?
Click to expand...

Tasco 30x illuminated pocket microscope that had been pretty prevalent for ages -
although I think now it's been discontinued:
Tasco30xms.jpg


But I think it was pretty "generic" one can find other "brands" of the same/similar thing just do a search on 30x illuminated microscope - if I recall there used to be a version with a visual graduated scale too.

I am quite happy with the 3 supplied grits - although I appreciate intermediate grades - I don't think it makes that much practical (if any) difference for me at between 25-20deg.

I actually like the "polished scored" finish -(ie: grind marks that have been polished) -
P220 is regarded as fine in most accounts and on hand honing 220 grit is considered pretty general for medium to fine - then finishing it off on a 6000 grit which is extra to ultra fine using a machine gives me a finish I am quite happy with - the results are certainly a good testimony that it works.

--
Vincent

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