EDC Work or Weapon?

[Tilley Knife]

Its a tool designed to cut......anything

Great response :thumbup:

The last number I could get for the United States was 2008 was a total number of stabbing deaths of 1,897, divided by the population at the time estimated at 325,000,000 equals 0.00001 of one percent

I actually agree with both of you guys; however, I would like to point out that statistical data, although accurate, is also impersonal. What I mean is, if you are one of those 1,897 people stabbed to death, then it's very little consolation that you only represent 0.00001 of 1% of the population. I'm just saying.

 

[Moosez45]

Where does it say that a knife can't be a tool and a weapon at the same time? What is this "tool or weapon" crap?

Consider this: A knife is a tool that is used to cut things.

"Things" can be defined in many ways: Paper, food, people, etc...

"Weapon" implies instrument of harm. If I mean to destructively cut a person, then my knife becomes a weapon. While my knife is busy being a weapon, it is still fulfilling its function as a tool to cut things (in this case a person)

In many jurisdictions the definition of weapon (outside of firearms) depends on the intent of the user. If I decide to beat some poor shmuck to death with my phone, SHAZAM! My phone is now a weapon. Conversly while your knife (whatever knife that may be) is hanging out in your pocket or on your belt, it is busy being a tool. It is not a weapon until you remove it from your pocket, open it up, and stab some sucker in the ribs with it.

Great post. I think the lines in "weapon or tool" was drawn when the right to keep knives went to the state and federal level. In the eyes of the law, a knife must be a weapon in order to keep them available to us, but a tool in the eyes of the general populace to keep from being labeled as a fanatic and or militant. Which some are. Most arene't, and there in lies the folly, and the paradox of being a responsible knife owner.

The Second Amendment covers the Right to Bear Arms, and now where else can a knife be considered. As an "arm or weapon", we have some legal precedence to draw on for support. Nothing guarantees us the Right to Bear Tools.

Weapon/Tool is in the eye of the guy holding the handle, in reality, its just an inanimate hunk of steel.

That's all my opinion by the way.

Moose

 

[Noctis3880]

Great post. I think the lines in "weapon or tool" was drawn when the right to keep knives went to the state and federal level. In the eyes of the law, a knife must be a weapon in order to keep them available to us, but a tool in the eyes of the general populace to keep from being labeled as a fanatic and or militant. Which some are. Most arene't, and there in lies the folly, and the paradox of being a responsible knife owner.

The Second Amendment covers the Right to Bear Arms, and now where else can a knife be considered. As an "arm or weapon", we have some legal precedence to draw on for support. Nothing guarantees us the Right to Bear Tools.

Weapon/Tool is in the eye of the guy holding the handle, in reality, its just an inanimate hunk of steel.

That's all my opinion by the way.

Moose

An interesting way to look at it, but of use to no one if I might say.

While I appreciate buying knives, I'm much more interested in using them. If they were ever to be officially classified as weapons(any knife whatsoever), that does not guarantee you the right to carry it with you(at least, I can't carry a gun on me in Hawaii), which to me makes it almost worthless as a weapon. I would also think that its weapon status is an obvious disadvantage if New York and Boston are good examples. Some folks here are suing the state for 2nd amendment right violations regarding the ban on concealed carry. I don't think they'll get anywhere, though the case would seem to show that the 2nd amendment does not guarantee the right to carry. So while it may protect your right to purchase a $425 Umnumzaan, should an officer ever be aware that you have it on you outside of your house it can be legally confiscated as a weapon.

 

[Warp]

Some of my friends were sitting around talking and this question came up. Who carries an EDC for a weapon first work knife second?

My Emerson LaGriffe is carried as a last ditch weapon first and a work knife never.

 

[co556guy]

I carry both. Currently carry 3 knives. A fixed fighter, a benchmade griptillian, and a cheap crkt folder that I use for times I just need a knife real quick.

It just makes my life easier. I only have to sharpen one knife, and if I break it or such, I'm not really attached to it. I don't want my fighting blades, which are coincidentally my most expensive blades, to get ruined doing something that could be done by a $5 knife from wally world.

I just see it as another option when going into public. Never ever want to pull a knife in anger (or gun), but I don't to be in a situation where I need to and can't.

 

[co556guy]

An interesting way to look at it, but of use to no one if I might say.

While I appreciate buying knives, I'm much more interested in using them. If they were ever to be officially classified as weapons(any knife whatsoever), that does not guarantee you the right to carry it with you(at least, I can't carry a gun on me in Hawaii), which to me makes it almost worthless as a weapon. I would also think that its weapon status is an obvious disadvantage if New York and Boston are good examples. Some folks here are suing the state for 2nd amendment right violations regarding the ban on concealed carry. I don't think they'll get anywhere, though the case would seem to show that the 2nd amendment does not guarantee the right to carry. So while it may protect your right to purchase a $425 Umnumzaan, should an officer ever be aware that you have it on you outside of your house it can be legally confiscated as a weapon.

In CO, I walk around with an OC glock regularly. Not everywhere is like Hi or Ny when it comes to guns/weapons. Trying to disallow 'weapons' in public because people are automatically scared of something that is called a 'weapon' is going about it the wrong way. You prosecute people for what they do, not what someone else is afraid of. Point in fact, not many people are afraid of cars (at least around here, everyone drives), but they make a much better weapon than a gun ever will...yet I've yet to have someone scream "oh my, is that a compact pickup you are driving, that's so dangerous and might spontaneously drive off and kill babies and kittens," yet I have had that reaction while OC in CO (which is legal, btw).

So yeah, I carry a lot of weapons with me daily. Keys, bag, pens, pencils, letter openers, cans of soda, belt, etc.

 

[ec9]

I carry several different knives one being my microtech auto. As a CCW holder in FL it’s covered under my permit. Honestly it would be the last option in my pockets I’d reach for. It’s not off the table but would be a last ditch effort. My pepper spray or firearm would be used long before my knife and maybe even my steel toe boot before my knife. It’s all about options and a knife would be my last given what I have on my person daily.

 

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

Weapon first and foremost. On a side note - people not trained, able, and willing to take care of business with a knife are wise to focus on their knife as being a work tool but shouldn't project themselves onto others.

 

[stabman]

Weapon first and foremost.

Rather depends on the knife too, doesn't it?
A 12" bladed dagger is a weapon generally, whereas no one but a wierdo would consider the Boker Gnome to be a weapon.
An Ulu would make a rather pathetic weapon as well.
Or a Spyderco Dragonfly.

 

[Clang!]

Work first and defense far down the list, but I live and work in low crime neighborhoods. That being said, when I lived in borderline neighborhood, defense was a consideration.

 

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

Rather depends on the knife too, doesn't it?
A 12" bladed dagger is a weapon generally, whereas no one but a wierdo would consider the Boker Gnome to be a weapon.
An Ulu would make a rather pathetic weapon as well.
Or a Spyderco Dragonfly.

Stab, that's true (I think Riddick could be pretty nasty with a couple of ulu knives though )

My personal daily carry knife has always been weapon first and foremost but I do take a friendly Victorinox Camper or little slipjoint with me a lot also. A large, solid folding knife with good ergonomics is a weapon I can have on me 99% of the time without having to pay for the freedom of carrying it and is more versatile as an emergency tool compared to the tiny, slim folders less suited.

 

[stabman]

Stab, that's true (I think Riddick could be pretty nasty with a couple of ulu knives though )

Riddick killed a guy using a tin cup too though.

If super heroes and villains ever come to existence, I'm sitting at all out on the sidelines.
(that's right, I don't think my Superhawk makes me a super hero, even though it has Super right in the name)

 

[killgar]

I remember a few years ago there was a story in the news (and heavily dicussed on this forum) about a guy who successfully fought off a moutain lion with a folding knife. The guy was attacked by a full-grown moutain lion, and while getting badly chewed up he pulled out his pocket knife, opened the knife, and stabbed the lion to death with it. The man survived.

I often think of this incident when the subject of self-defense with a knife, and what it takes to be successful at it, comes up. People often say "A knife is worthless for self-defense." or "You need extensive training to use a knife." or "You need a hard-core ruthless mindset to successfully use a knife.", ect, ect, ect.

The guy who killed the moutain lion, he had no training in fighting moutain lions with a knife, he wasn't former Spec-ops or some hard-core, badass tough guy with steel nerves and a fearless heart. And I'm sure the last thing he expected that day was that he would have to fight for his life, against a moutain lion, using only a folding knife.

He was just a regular guy who found himself in a desperate situation. Fighting for his life against a strong, ruthless, fearless, determined, and heavily armed predator, using only what he had. And yet he lived to tell the tale. Was he lucky? Sure he was. But I believe he survived because he had a strong will to live, and a knife. Sometimes, that's all it takes.

Some of my knives are tools, some are for self-defense.

 

[Noctis3880]

I remember a few years ago there was a story in the news (and heavily dicussed on this forum) about a guy who successfully fought off a moutain lion with a folding knife. The guy was attacked by a full-grown moutain lion, and while getting badly chewed up he pulled out his pocket knife, opened the knife, and stabbed the lion to death with it. The man survived.

I often think of this incident when the subject of self-defense with a knife, and what it takes to be successful at it, comes up. People often say "A knife is worthless for self-defense." or "You need extensive training to use a knife." or "You need a hard-core ruthless mindset to successfully use a knife.", ect, ect, ect.

The guy who killed the moutain lion, he had no training in fighting moutain lions with a knife, he wasn't former Spec-ops or some hard-core, badass tough guy with steel nerves and a fearless heart. And I'm sure the last thing he expected that day was that he would have to fight for his life, against a moutain lion, using only a folding knife.

He was just a regular guy who found himself in a desperate situation. Fighting for his life against a strong, ruthless, fearless, determined, and heavily armed predator, using only what he had. And yet he lived to tell the tale. Was he lucky? Sure he was. But I believe he survived because he had a strong will to live, and a knife. Sometimes, that's all it takes.

Some of my knives are tools, some are for self-defense.

If we were to repeated that same situation about 10 times, I personally feel it would be doubtful that there would be more than a 50/50 chance of it turning out alright. The problem with random aimless stabbing is that unless you puncture an area of immediate consequence(eye, neck, heart, brain, or lung), then it may very well be of absolutely no use in stopping the attack before you get killed or become injured to the point where you can't defend yourself any longer. No point in killing your attacker if he won't die before you do.

Though in that situation, I'm not sure if training is quite the right word for it. How exactly do you train to kill a mountain lion? How do you train against someone determined to kill you if your instructor's actions are restrained(won't pull dirty tricks, won't kick you in the balls, won't bite you, won't full on tackle you with the full force of his 300 lbs body)? I would think knowledge of what to do, where to do it, and a(relatively) clear mind while under the influence of adrenaline would help.

 

[Shorttime]

Yeah, there's a similar story about a bear, too. The bear was trash can fishing and the guy walked out the back door at the wrong time. I think all he had with him was an SAK, but he managed to cause the bear enough trauma to kill it. If you really want the details, I'm sure it's still around, somewhere.

But animals are different from people. Their motivations for contact with people are different, and their actions are very different. For example, an animal is not going to try and disarm you, or defend itself specifically against you weapon. Likewise, the legal aftermath of killing an animal is usually pretty simple.

Phsychologically, the process of defending yourself against an animal attack is different too. We have the mental wiring to cope with animal attacks, but that wiring doesn't necessarily function the same when defending yourself against another human...

Taking a conversational left turn now, I would like to know what some of these dedicated SD knives are. You know, just in case I change my mind.

 

[Warp]

No point in killing your attacker if he won't die before you do.

I disagree.

Obviously survival is the first priority. And the second. And the third. And I understand your overall point. But if I'm not going to survive I don't want my attacker to either. Animal or person.

 

[6leafdom]

most of the time i just see my knife as a tool. but sometimes it gives my mind peace to know that i do have some sorta last resort weapons i can rely on when all else fails. i personally wouldn't use my knife right away in a defensive situation simply because you have to take into account that u do have the option to take away that guy's life and u do not want to be held accountable for that. therefore non lethal improvise weapons allows me to fight all out without worrying killing that guy. (i live in canada, and ppl can't carry guns so i dont have to worry bout that)

 

[stabman]

. (i live in canada, and ppl can't carry guns so i dont have to worry bout that)

Faulty logic.
Criminals don't follow laws (part of being a criminal, ya know), including weapon laws.
I've personally met a number of less than reputable fellows who carry firearms, and I don't even get around all that much.
Assuming the other guy won't have a gun (or knife or lead pipe, etc.) is a great way to get yourself incredibly dead.

 

[ISKski]

I mainly carry my knife as a tool to cut non-living things - but on a side note - i live in Philadelphia and when I am walking home late at night by myself, I am usually playing with my knife in my pocket, keeping one hand on it for one of those moments... with that being said, I've had a gun pulled on me twice once here in philly and once in savannah georgia - the last thing that i thought about doing was pulling out my knife and making some sort of attempt to save my life - also the only person I know to have used a knife in "self defense" currently resides in prison, there was a huge fight at a local park, this guy pulled out a knife, stabbed someone in the stomach, and now he is the only one who is still rotting in a prison cell .. even if you feel threatened doesn't mean a jury of your peers will set you free.. just a thought..

 

[knarfeng]

EDC Work or Weapon?

Work.