Bad Survive! Deserves A Permanent Post In The Hall Of Shame

EngrSorenson said:
At this point I believe everyone should be on team "Screw S!K", but I'm willing to offer the olive branch to the "I'm new here, I'll wait and see" group.
What I don't understand is the group that somehow is convinced that Guy's just a victim of a billion problems which were not his fault.
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The ability of the masses to think critically anymore is largely gone… couple that with society’s love for any “victim”, they see the smiling idiot on YouTube and take it his face value like everything else on their iPhone screen and social media feed. They see Guy trying to give the world the best “user experience” as a noble effort.

I don’t believe that Guy’s supporters have seen much of the negativity or invested the time to understand. Some also don’t want to believe they’ve been duped. Remember, it’s easier to fool some people than it is to convince them they’ve been fooled.
 
beeinak said:
Hopefully over the falls. Lol
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That could be the next excuse!

"I was driving to Niagara and my gps confused the falls for the company! Took me right over the falls. I'll be out of commission for a while but in the meantime, here's the next preorder...."
 
I wonder if Guy will switch to low alloy steels with the claims of superior quality and performance.

I really think all this song and dance is just a at to gain attention to drive sales. Oh this poor guy is trying to fine the man let me order a knife to help him out.
 
craytab said:
That could be the next excuse!

"I was driving to Niagara and my gps confused the falls for the company! Took me right over the falls. I'll be out of commission for a while but in the meantime, here's the next preorder...."
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“….but after crashing I realized that the latest bumper reinforcement steel isn’t up to my standards, so we will be working on that as a priority…. But as soon as we perfect that, we will start churning out knives…”
 
Blues said:
But...what would make you "think" that Crucible could be making the steel in a way that introduces the problems...as opposed to, say, the way the maker is working with the steel?

And at least one other maker has reported past issues he had with the steel and as far as I know, Crucible was able to determine which batch, or portion thereof, was "tainted" and take steps to address it. (I do not know specific details as it is outside of my need to know and I did not pry.) My understanding is that it was isolated to that one case. Also, it has been reported here in this thread that the knives returned by Survive! to be tested...were tested independently...and not found to have been outside of spec.

I don't necessarily think that Guy is lying...he may be...or, giving him the benefit of the doubt, he may not know any better...or is inadvertently introducing the flaws into the blades through some process of his own. (I am not nearly qualified to answer that, but I do know how to run an investigation and what questions to ask in the search for truth.)

The issue as I see it is that a problem or problems arose...things got out of hand, orders went unfilled, money was not refunded in a timely manner, and when the pressure reached a certain point, Survive! began throwing everyone and everything under the bus to try to limit the damage to their own reputation and business...to the exclusion of everyone and everything else.

In a perfect world I'd like to see everyone get the knives they want (or wanted), or their money back...and for NSM and Crucible not to be unjustly defamed.

Then we could get back to arguing important things like whether forging is better than stock removal.
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Sorry for the delayed response. What do I think Crucible's role could be in all of this, assuming the voids and inclusions are not Survive's fault? If Crucible did not do enough testing (note I did NOT say they didn't do any testing) on the recommended heat treating protocols, I think that could affect things. Perhaps the composition is slightly off. Sufficient testing should reveal that. Think of it like this: Thomas and Crucible discover that Magnacut has great potential not only as a knife steel but also the business impact it could have. Very eager to get this to market before their competitors come up with something similar or better, they take an aggressive path to get this out to market. And when there is pressure to get a product to market enormous pressure will be to shorten the amount of time devoted to testing.

But all of that is just speculation on my part. I still think NSM might be on the hook for the voids and inclusions ( if they are equivalent terms in the knife-making world let me know ). If you look at one of Survive's videos where he posts emails from NSM, you will see they acknowledge a problem in October 2022. I have attached a screenshot of that email to this message. They mention there could be a problem with their rollers and maybe they aren't using the right temperature in heat treatment. Finally, they tell him the problem he is experiencing will go away in 2024 when they install a new furnace. To me, they have some ownership of this problem. Whether Survive is exacerbating the problem with their finishing processes also remains on the table.

For the sake of discussion, let's just say Survive is 100 percent correct - it's NSM's issue to fix. He still has to deliver the knives he's promised. And from a video I watched recently of his former shop in Idaho, he has at least a couple hundred GSO 10/12 blades he can finish and get out the door. He might buy some time with this gambit but in about six months to a year, he'll be right back to where he was before all of this happened.

Putting him out of business or putting him in jail isn't going to get the knives delivered; unless that's the whole point of this thread.
 

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El_Bribon said:
Putting him out of business or putting him in jail isn't going to get the knives delivered; unless that's the whole point of this thread.
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The point of this thread is to warn knife buyers of this company’s long history of shady business practices and their ability to produce excuses far exceeding their ability to produce knives, and hopefully save people from throwing their money away. Whatever else happens beyond that is just a side story.
 
El_Bribon said:
Sorry for the delayed response. What do I think Crucible's role could be in all of this, assuming the voids and inclusions are not Survive's fault? If Crucible did not do enough testing (note I did NOT say they didn't do any testing) on the recommended heat treating protocols, I think that could affect things. Perhaps the composition is slightly off. Sufficient testing should reveal that. Think of it like this: Thomas and Crucible discover that Magnacut has great potential not only as a knife steel but also the business impact it could have. Very eager to get this to market before their competitors come up with something similar or better, they take an aggressive path to get this out to market. And when there is pressure to get a product to market enormous pressure will be to shorten the amount of time devoted to testing.

But all of that is just speculation on my part. I still think NSM might be on the hook for the voids and inclusions ( if they are equivalent terms in the knife-making world let me know ). If you look at one of Survive's videos where he posts emails from NSM, you will see they acknowledge a problem in October 2022. I have attached a screenshot of that email to this message. They mention there could be a problem with their rollers and maybe they aren't using the right temperature in heat treatment. Finally, they tell him the problem he is experiencing will go away in 2024 when they install a new furnace. To me, they have some ownership of this problem. Whether Survive is exacerbating the problem with their finishing processes also remains on the table.

For the sake of discussion, let's just say Survive is 100 percent correct - it's NSM's issue to fix. He still has to deliver the knives he's promised. And from a video I watched recently of his former shop in Idaho, he has at least a couple hundred GSO 10/12 blades he can finish and get out the door. He might buy some time with this gambit but in about six months to a year, he'll be right back to where he was before all of this happened.

Putting him out of business or putting him in jail isn't going to get the knives delivered; unless that's the whole point of this thread.
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Thankfully Guy is single-handed saving the knife industry from this horrible conspiracy!

And thank you El for bringing this terrible injustice to light...next - save the children!
 
El_Bribon said:
Putting him out of business or putting him in jail isn't going to get the knives delivered; unless that's the whole point of this thread.
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The point of this thread is that allowing him to continue doing what he's doing isn't going to get the knives delivered either
 
El_Bribon said:
Sorry for the delayed response. What do I think Crucible's role could be in all of this, assuming the voids and inclusions are not Survive's fault? If Crucible did not do enough testing (note I did NOT say they didn't do any testing) on the recommended heat treating protocols, I think that could affect things. Perhaps the composition is slightly off. Sufficient testing should reveal that. Think of it like this: Thomas and Crucible discover that Magnacut has great potential not only as a knife steel but also the business impact it could have. Very eager to get this to market before their competitors come up with something similar or better, they take an aggressive path to get this out to market. And when there is pressure to get a product to market enormous pressure will be to shorten the amount of time devoted to testing.

But all of that is just speculation on my part. I still think NSM might be on the hook for the voids and inclusions ( if they are equivalent terms in the knife-making world let me know ). If you look at one of Survive's videos where he posts emails from NSM, you will see they acknowledge a problem in October 2022. I have attached a screenshot of that email to this message. They mention there could be a problem with their rollers and maybe they aren't using the right temperature in heat treatment. Finally, they tell him the problem he is experiencing will go away in 2024 when they install a new furnace. To me, they have some ownership of this problem. Whether Survive is exacerbating the problem with their finishing processes also remains on the table.

For the sake of discussion, let's just say Survive is 100 percent correct - it's NSM's issue to fix. He still has to deliver the knives he's promised. And from a video I watched recently of his former shop in Idaho, he has at least a couple hundred GSO 10/12 blades he can finish and get out the door. He might buy some time with this gambit but in about six months to a year, he'll be right back to where he was before all of this happened.

Putting him out of business or putting him in jail isn't going to get the knives delivered; unless that's the whole point of this thread.
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One of the issues that came to light in the latest video is that Guy is cutting the blanks with the edge perpendicular to the rolling direction not parallel which is the norm since that leads to the greatest toughness. This means the “voids” he is now seeing which have changed from decarb to inclusions to voids to incisions to voids. Would be in the same line with the rolling direction. Even if the steel was rolled in two directions in the beginning and then one direction at the end the elongation of inclusions/voids/antimatter whatever he might want to call it would be more pronounced in the final rolling direction. The point being the issues would be seen as perpendicular with the edge. Which is what you see in those early decarb videos. However his latest video shows closer to parallel with the edge.

The cold hard fact is we don’t have enough data. Guy is cherry picking information and processes to show us. Even in the email chain video we don’t see the entire communication.

I read it like NSM was like huh maybe something is wrong let’s take these preventive measures address an issue that might not actually be an issue but it’s better to act on it now. (I could be reading into wrong)

Honestly the implications for NSM trying to sweep this under the rug probably aren’t in the best interest of the company. Given their involvement in the aerospace industry it would be best to address these issues honestly instead of some large scale disaster happening and then they’re discovered to be at fault due to faulty materials. I guess the other question is what other things are CPM steels used for and does it matter if there are minor voids or inclusions in something like a die press.
 
"One of the issues that came to light in the latest video is that Guy is cutting the blanks with the edge perpendicular to the rolling direction not parallel which is the norm since that leads to the greatest toughness."

I thought that was proven to be false in CPM steels? I could be mistaken...
 
Thescrawnylumberjack said:
One of the issues that came to light in the latest video is that Guy is cutting the blanks with the edge perpendicular to the rolling direction not parallel which is the norm since that leads to the greatest toughness. This means the “voids” he is now seeing which have changed from decarb to inclusions to voids to incisions to voids. Would be in the same line with the rolling direction. Even if the steel was rolled in two directions in the beginning and then one direction at the end the elongation of inclusions/voids/antimatter whatever he might want to call it would be more pronounced in the final rolling direction. The point being the issues would be seen as perpendicular with the edge. Which is what you see in those early decarb videos. However his latest video shows closer to parallel with the edge.

The cold hard fact is we don’t have enough data. Guy is cherry picking information and processes to show us. Even in the email chain video we don’t see the entire communication.

I read it like NSM was like huh maybe something is wrong let’s take these preventive measures address an issue that might not actually be an issue but it’s better to act on it now. (I could be reading into wrong)

Honestly the implications for NSM trying to sweep this under the rug probably aren’t in the best interest of the company. Given their involvement in the aerospace industry it would be best to address these issues honestly instead of some large scale disaster happening and then they’re discovered to be at fault due to faulty materials. I guess the other question is what other things are CPM steels used for and does it matter if there are minor voids or inclusions in something like a die press.
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Thank you for the info. This was good.
 
Some of you folks speculate about what Crucible and NSM are doing or not doing, and then go on to discuss that mere speculation as though it were fact. This really does nobody any favors, let alone justice.

If you don't know what they are doing, or have done, in regards to research and analysis, why post in a manner that suggests what they have or haven't done? Who here is privy to that information?

Also, while I have tried to provide information from relevant sources here, those individuals are not under any obligation to post here...and are generally advised by their corporate counsel not to do so in order that any matters which may end up before a court of law will not be tainted by statements made elsewhere.

They have a very real interest, financially and professionally, in having the facts come to light.


ETA:

As with anything of import, it is crucial to look at and weigh the facts and the evidence dispassionately. Also, to evaluate the statements and the subsequent actions of the parties in determining who is doing what, and what they have to gain...lose...or avoid...in so doing.
Put your thinking caps on and look at the preponderance of the evidence available. It will all come out in the wash.
 
Blues said:
Some of you folks speculate about what Crucible and NSM are doing or not doing, and then go on to discuss that mere speculation as though it were fact. This really does nobody any favors, let alone justice.

If you don't know what they are doing, or have done, in regards to research and analysis, why post in a manner that suggests what they have or haven't done? Who here is privy to that information?

Also, while I have tried to provide information from relevant sources here, those individuals are not under any obligation to post here...and are generally advised by their corporate counsel not to do so in order that any matters which may end up before a court of law will not be tainted by statements made elsewhere.

They have a very real interest, financially and professionally, in having the facts come to light.
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I think it's just the nature of speculative discussion. To follow a line of thinking, you have to take a statement or thought and expand upon it even if that original statement or thought is speculation. I agree it doesn't lead to justice, but gives people further thinking points until the absolute facts come out, if that ever happens.

I personally don't think Guy/Survive! have enough reach to make companies like Crucible or NSM act one way or another and there's a very good chance they'll just wait for him to shut up and go away. Surely if they are concerned their lawyers have done some due diligence which likely lead to this thread and the many other discussions like it across the internet. They know he doesn't have any fuel for this fire he's started and it will burn out in time. If there were real issues for them to address, they'd be hearing about it from Spyderco, Kershaw, Buck, and all the other real knife companies that use Magnacut and various other CPM steels in much higher volumes.
 
navman said:
"One of the issues that came to light in the latest video is that Guy is cutting the blanks with the edge perpendicular to the rolling direction not parallel which is the norm since that leads to the greatest toughness."

I thought that was proven to be false in CPM steels? I could be mistaken...
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I believe I’ve seen toughness numbers for 4V in Larrin’s book on knife making where he labels the one result as transverse toughness. I don’t have access to the book maybe someone can confirm.
 
“Look guys if we ASSUME against all contrary prior experience and evidence that Guy is telling the truth and not isn’t making up excuses for non-delivery of preorders and if we ASSUME that there’s a massive conspiracy led by a major steel manufacturer and supported by Big Knifemaking maybe there’s a topic we can wring some discussion out of.”

If Guy told me a rock fell when he dropped it I’d still go outside and make sure gravity was still in effect.
 
El_Bribon said:
Putting him out of business or putting him in jail isn't going to get the knives delivered; unless that's the whole point of this thread.
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No one is ever going to get their knives delivered or a refund. It's not how grifting works.

I don't know why you feel that defending them and supporting blatant untruth's against NSM is warranted.

The point of this thread.........is to warn others, who may be considering it, not to have any involvement whatsoever with the professional grifters who front the company Survive.
 
Blues said:
ETA:

As with anything of import, it is crucial to look at and weigh the facts and the evidence dispassionately. Also, to evaluate the statements and the subsequent actions of the parties in determining who is doing what, and what they have to gain...lose...or avoid...in so doing.
Put your thinking caps on and look at the preponderance of the evidence available. It will all come out in the wash.
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I'm sure that more details will eventually come out and we'll get an understanding of what happened.

But one party in this situation has had shady business practices even when this whole Magnacut affair isn't factored in.
 
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